Higher education pays off!

Lew · 16th September 2009, 10:45 PM

Fearn

We will have to all have a questionare ready for the burglar when breaks in please anwser the following are you here only to rob? Rob and rape? Rob rape and murder. Sorry but retreating upstairs into a locked room and hope this guy was not armed and and looking to kill me is silly. There was a case my friend told me about in Illinois where this guy broke into this man home 2am inthe morning his wife and kids were upstairs so he grabbed his handgun and as he was walking down the stairs the buglar was coming up and had a crowbar in his hand so the homeowner shot and killed the guy with the crow bar . The police ended up arresting him because he did not try to retreat.

fearn · 16th September 2009, 10:58 PM

Hi Louie,

Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run.

I

A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or

B) go for an immediate kill.

Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear.

Personally, I'd rather knock burglar-dude down the stairs and let the police make him walk off on two broken ankles. Saves me the angst and the cleanup bills.

That's the problem with this case. In Maryland, case-law supports the student, not statue law, and we don't know the circumstances of the scuffle. If he went after the burglar with his sword, and all the cuts on the burglar are defensive, the student commited manslaughter, not self-defense.

We just don't know what happened, despite (or perhaps because of) all the publicity this has garnered.

I'm not saying retreat, what I'm saying is know what you're allowed to do legally, and make sure your first line of defense follows the law. What you do after that is up to you.

Best,

F

asomotif · 16th September 2009, 11:39 PM

Here in the Netherlands you are also supposed to retreat if possible.

So even in your own house retreat should be the best option.

Well lets just hope it will not happen.
A large part of my edged weapons is mandau's and personally I don't find them very handy, especially indoors they are not my weapon of choice

Maybe I should get myself a nice Wakizashi

t_c · 17th September 2009, 12:06 AM

A sad story all around: An unnecessary (and apparently unintentional) death and possibly a ruined future. A diploma from John Hopkins would have served the student a lot better then felon status in the US job market. A teacher of mine once said (and I'm inclined to agree) "There is no such thing as self-defense with a knife" (or sword for that matter). Edged weapons are not tools for restraint or submission. I fear a jury will come to the same conclusion.

If I ever have an unexpected visitor I hope I have the clarity and calm to remember my friend's advice: "offer them a cup of tea." I know, crazy Buddhists, but I think he might be on to something....

ariel · 17th September 2009, 12:45 AM

As a matter of fact, some of the members of this Forum are, in fact, lawyers. They may explain to all of us salient points of the law (US, of course).
All of us have sharp and pointy things in our houses and many ( I would think most) do not have firearms: I do not.
Thus, if, and when, we are confronted with a similar situation, tulwars, koras and kindjals are the only means we have to defend ourselves and our families. My understanding, in the US, one does not have to retreat from an armed intruder into our house, especially at night.
When can we use deadly force? What are the legal limits we are not allowed to cross? What circumstances allow us to claim legitimate self-defense and prevail?

I ain't no joking, folks.

M ELEY · 17th September 2009, 01:54 AM

Content deleted...

fearn · 17th September 2009, 02:52 AM

Hi Ariel,

I'm NOT a lawyer, but I can tell you that the law varies by state. Every reference I've seen notes that, so I assume it's true.

As both Rick and I noted, the key words are "I am in fear for my life." I was only half joking about engraving these words on the hilt of your lethal self-defense implements. It's a good reminder for when you're supposed to use them as they were designed.

Anyway, Wikipedia has various useful links to start from:

Right of Self Defense

Self defense in the US

Castle Doctrine (This is the "man's home is his castle" concept, and deals with when you have a legal duty to retreat and when you can legally stand your ground).

As noted, the laws vary by state, not to mention by country, but this is a place to start looking up what those laws.

Best,

F

Lew · 17th September 2009, 03:46 AM

[QUOTE=fearn]Hi Louie,

Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run.

I

A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or

B) go for an immediate kill.

Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear.

Fearn

If he is in your bedroom there is no where for you to retreat or if you find him in your 13 year old daughters room Btw how would you know if he is unarmed could have a knife or a gun tucked away in his pants I think the police would understand? When that adreneline kicks in at 2am don't think you would be standing there scratching your head thinking what are those Maryland state laws again? a policeman who trained people in the deadly arts once told me better judged by twelve than carried by six. So if you fear for your life and you disable him with a cut its self defense if you keep hacking at him its murder nothing is cut and dry here it all depends on the situation at that instant.

KuKulzA28 · 17th September 2009, 05:05 AM

I don't think that it's a show of hubris and bravado to point out that you would prefer to confront the criminal rather than retreat further into your own home and hope for a merciful crime. If he stole your TV, not THAT bad... but like others have pointed out, what if he's after more than a valuable item or two? The factors and conditions go on and on. The law may want you to hide and wait to be rescued. Protecting you, your loved ones, and your property may demand that you take immediate and decisive action. I too have heard the saying "better judged by twelve than carried by six" and I definitely agree with it.

It's not a "I would do this if", it's more an issue of law and the right to live and live safely. The law is there for you usually... sometimes it isn't. The government is bigger than you... you won that fight but lost that "war" so to speak... I feel sorry for the student, I bet he was just doing what he thought necessary. Perhaps if he was a single father with a little girl or a young woman he might get into less or no trouble. Such is law.

Andrew · 17th September 2009, 05:46 AM

Off Topic, and I don't feel much like writing a legal treatise about US law here.

16th September 2009, 10:45 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Fearn We will have to all have a questionare ready for the burglar when breaks in please anwser the following are you here only to rob? Rob and rape? Rob rape and murder. Sorry but retreating upstairs into a locked room and hope this guy was not armed and and looking to kill me is silly. There was a case my friend told me about in Illinois where this guy broke into this man home 2am inthe morning his wife and kids were upstairs so he grabbed his handgun and as he was walking down the stairs the buglar was coming up and had a crowbar in his hand so the homeowner shot and killed the guy with the crow bar . The police ended up arresting him because he did not try to retreat. Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 16th September 2009 at 10:59 PM.

17th September 2009, 01:54 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Content deleted... Last edited by M ELEY; 17th September 2009 at 02:33 AM.

17th September 2009, 03:46 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=fearn]Hi Louie, Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run. I A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or B) go for an immediate kill. Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear. Fearn If he is in your bedroom there is no where for you to retreat or if you find him in your 13 year old daughters room Btw how would you know if he is unarmed could have a knife or a gun tucked away in his pants I think the police would understand? When that adreneline kicks in at 2am don't think you would be standing there scratching your head thinking what are those Maryland state laws again? a policeman who trained people in the deadly arts once told me better judged by twelve than carried by six. So if you fear for your life and you disable him with a cut its self defense if you keep hacking at him its murder nothing is cut and dry here it all depends on the situation at that instant. Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 17th September 2009 at 03:58 AM.

16th September 2009, 10:58 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Louie, Here's an example. Let's say I have a large, sharp kukri near my bed. An unarmed burglar breaks in. I confront him with the bare blade. He doesn't run. I A) hit him hard with the flat or spine of the blade, and if he doesn't get the idea, cut him as hard as I can with the edge on the backswing, or B) go for an immediate kill. Depends on the situation. The one I train is A), because the state where I live doesn't let me kill burglars for being in my house, although it lets me use lethal self defense if I'm in fear for my life. That fear is the standard. If you're afraid, you're allowed to act on that fear. Personally, I'd rather knock burglar-dude down the stairs and let the police make him walk off on two broken ankles. Saves me the angst and the cleanup bills. That's the problem with this case. In Maryland, case-law supports the student, not statue law, and we don't know the circumstances of the scuffle. If he went after the burglar with his sword, and all the cuts on the burglar are defensive, the student commited manslaughter, not self-defense. We just don't know what happened, despite (or perhaps because of) all the publicity this has garnered. I'm not saying retreat, what I'm saying is know what you're allowed to do legally, and make sure your first line of defense follows the law. What you do after that is up to you. Best, F

16th September 2009, 11:39 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Here in the Netherlands you are also supposed to retreat if possible. So even in your own house retreat should be the best option. Well lets just hope it will not happen. A large part of my edged weapons is mandau's and personally I don't find them very handy, especially indoors they are not my weapon of choice Maybe I should get myself a nice Wakizashi

17th September 2009, 12:06 AM	#4
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	A sad story all around: An unnecessary (and apparently unintentional) death and possibly a ruined future. A diploma from John Hopkins would have served the student a lot better then felon status in the US job market. A teacher of mine once said (and I'm inclined to agree) "There is no such thing as self-defense with a knife" (or sword for that matter). Edged weapons are not tools for restraint or submission. I fear a jury will come to the same conclusion. If I ever have an unexpected visitor I hope I have the clarity and calm to remember my friend's advice: "offer them a cup of tea." I know, crazy Buddhists, but I think he might be on to something....

17th September 2009, 12:45 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, some of the members of this Forum are, in fact, lawyers. They may explain to all of us salient points of the law (US, of course). All of us have sharp and pointy things in our houses and many ( I would think most) do not have firearms: I do not. Thus, if, and when, we are confronted with a similar situation, tulwars, koras and kindjals are the only means we have to defend ourselves and our families. My understanding, in the US, one does not have to retreat from an armed intruder into our house, especially at night. When can we use deadly force? What are the legal limits we are not allowed to cross? What circumstances allow us to claim legitimate self-defense and prevail? I ain't no joking, folks.

17th September 2009, 02:52 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, I'm NOT a lawyer, but I can tell you that the law varies by state. Every reference I've seen notes that, so I assume it's true. As both Rick and I noted, the key words are "I am in fear for my life." I was only half joking about engraving these words on the hilt of your lethal self-defense implements. It's a good reminder for when you're supposed to use them as they were designed. Anyway, Wikipedia has various useful links to start from: Right of Self Defense Self defense in the US Castle Doctrine (This is the "man's home is his castle" concept, and deals with when you have a legal duty to retreat and when you can legally stand your ground). As noted, the laws vary by state, not to mention by country, but this is a place to start looking up what those laws. Best, F

17th September 2009, 05:05 AM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I don't think that it's a show of hubris and bravado to point out that you would prefer to confront the criminal rather than retreat further into your own home and hope for a merciful crime. If he stole your TV, not THAT bad... but like others have pointed out, what if he's after more than a valuable item or two? The factors and conditions go on and on. The law may want you to hide and wait to be rescued. Protecting you, your loved ones, and your property may demand that you take immediate and decisive action. I too have heard the saying "better judged by twelve than carried by six" and I definitely agree with it. It's not a "I would do this if", it's more an issue of law and the right to live and live safely. The law is there for you usually... sometimes it isn't. The government is bigger than you... you won that fight but lost that "war" so to speak... I feel sorry for the student, I bet he was just doing what he thought necessary. Perhaps if he was a single father with a little girl or a young woman he might get into less or no trouble. Such is law.

17th September 2009, 05:46 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Off Topic, and I don't feel much like writing a legal treatise about US law here.