On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks migueldiaz... my how far have we gotten from shit-knife?
At least we're still borderline still on topic with the drugs!

There are a lot of disgruntled youth, people with terrible upbringings, and psychopaths. Give them a sanctioned outlet with hysteria-inducing rituals, intoxicants available, and war... and they will flock together for that. While strong and disciplined glory/booty-seeking Viking warriors with spears, axes, swords, and shield, backed up by bowmen were the back-bone.. the bersarkers were probably more of a psychological effect on the enemy.

Imagine an enemy who is obviously crazy, swinging at you with 100% the entire time, not slowing down, shot with two arrows already and still coming... that is somewhat inhuman and scary.

It's possible that they used drugs, but like fearn said I think it's more likely that many were psychopaths to begin with.


However, do any of you know of the corvo? It is a curved knife from Chile, and was famously used in the War of the Pacific by Chilean soldiers. They would be given Chupilca del diablo (a mix of black gunpowder with aguardiente) that made the men crazy and violent. May not have been quite as effective as machine guns and rifles, but the sight of crazed men lobbing off your friends' heads with curved knives must be shocking. Parallels can be found all over the place.

[Jim McDougall]

Still interesting stuff guys, some of it gettin' kinda weird, but as we get into topics like pyschological effects in battle, and here and there the essence of weaponry as applied, the degree of pertinance stubbornly holds.

The use of psychological warfare absolutely cannot be discounted, and combat and associated trauma can only be realized as monumental and surreal. One of the best books I have found that addresses this phenomenon is "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan. He presents interesting perspective on this subject, but even his descriptions must be thought of as relatively civilized compared to warfare in earlier times, when mankind had only nominal contact with the concept of civilization.

I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria. There have been many investigations into these kinds of mind sets on various works, one book that I can think of is "The Mind in the Cave" discussing early man and shamanic activity using things such as chanting, drum rhythms and mental focus that could bring on trances and surreal intensity.

Musical psychologica is well known in combat, and loud chanting, beating of shields and shouting, and variations of noise was often, if not typically employed to dissuade or disconcert the enemy before contact.
In Scotland,besides the well known discarding of clothing and screaming charges of Celts, many berserks and then the Scots, was notably terrifying.
The bagpipe, though not indiginous to Scotland, became a well known device to stir the combativeness of thier forces, as well as to frighten the enemy. Indeed, these instruments were ultimately proscribed after the last rebellion as they were classed as a weapon!

The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand.

It has been documented that even in the aftermath of intense cavalry engagements, survivors were often seen sitting upright in thier saddles, staring emptily in a daze, with tears streaming down thier cheeks, not from sadness or fear, but from release of the power of inimaginable adrenalin and rage.

In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead.
In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect.

The psychological effect of the appearance of many weapons is well established, and this has been discussed many times over the years here, however,the psychological state of the warrior himself however, has not.

He, as a virtual living weapon, is essentially the topic here, and as such, the discussion serves well.

All best regards,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria.
[...]
The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand.

Very good point. The mindset of a person can be enough to make them "berserk" let alone drug-induced state.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead.

That still happens today where a victim will be fighting off his assailant, or a cop fighting with a criminal... and thanks to adrenaline and focus, bullets and deep knife wounds are sometimes disregarded by the wounded as they keep on fighting. Many knife-attack victims are in a hand to hand fight only to realize they have been cut badly by a surprise-knife... but sometimes they had even killed their opponent before finding out that they have knife-wounds...

They say there is such a thing as a "10 second rule"... and even if mortally wounded, he can probably still kill you in that 10 seconds when he is enraged and pumping pull of adrenaline.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect.

Reminds me of the Moro juramentado...

[aiontay]

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? We've got the Amazon priestess of the Philippines, and one of the versions of the origins of the balisong knife is that it is a woman's weapon, or one that women frequently used. Given that women's daily chores in many traditional cultures would be very blade dependent, maybe the focus on berserkers might obscure lots of other knives, improvised and otherwise used by women. In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

And how about knives made of river cane? They were extremely common in the SE USA. I've tried to make them and have never been successful. Does anyone have any information on how it was done?

[migueldiaz]

Some more info re extreme mental stress experienced by warriors during battle, taken from this Cannae battle article, using works by Marshall and Keegan for reference --

The warriors' deep dark secrets -- '[D]uring combat the soldier may become so gripped by fear that most of his thought is directed toward escape. But if he serving among men whom he has known for a long period or whose judgment of him counts for any reason, he still will strive to hide his terror from them ... The majority are unwilling to take extraordinary risks and do not aspire to a hero's role, but they are equally unwilling that they should be considered the least worthy among those present [SLA Marshall, 1947, p. 149]'

Pelters' peer pressure -- After the battle lines would have been drawn, skirmishers will try to disrupt the enemy's formation by getting near them to launch volleys of missiles. 'Many frightened troops [i.e., skirmishers] would have used their weapon in these circumstances out of a desire not to appear weak in front of their friends [the most important reason why men fight in battle, per Marshall (1947) and John Keegan (1976)] ... a large proportion of these would have fired blindly, without even attempting to aim.'

Not much change after 2,000 years -- In comparison, Marshall (1947) in his study of the American infantry's performance in WW2 observed that on average, 'no more than 15% of men ever used their weapon in any given engagement. This figure rose to 25% in the most aggressive companies when under extreme pressure ... [in the Korean War] the rate of fire [rose] to over 50%. However, no more than 20% of troops aimed their weapons.' Furthermore, 'Marshall's research (1947, pp. 48-9) indicated many troops will simply not use their weapons unless told to do so ....'

They need more peyote and/or ayahuasca!

[fearn]

Hi Migueldiaz,

I'm not sure that any hallucinogens such as ayahuasca or peyote are ever used in battle, mostly because the normal side effects (projectile vomiting and defecation) along with the visions, make it really hard for anyone to fight under the influence of either of these drugs. Peyote and ayahuasca are also generally taken in a strongly spiritual context, not on the battlefield.

In regard to peyote and warfare, the only question I'm interested in is whether the Native American Church has an active program to reintegrate returning soldiers back into their civilian communities, and whether peyote plays a part in that program. Many native people have rituals and such to help people "come down" from fighting and re-enter their communities. The one I know about is the Navajo "Enemy Way," but I'm sure there are others. It's something the US Army is finally learning to do, and given the harm caused by untreated PTSD, I think it's a good thing.

The drugs I know that have been used in combat include alcohol (to lower inhibitions, it also lowers judgement and accuracy, as we all know), meth, cocaine, and heroin, and that's mostly from vietnam and current third-world conflicts. The fact that some warlords use these drugs on child soldiers is (to me) horrifying.

Obviously, we're getting off the general topic of ethnographic weapons here, unless someone's going to bring out one of those Japanese opium pipe/clubs. Still, many of the weapons we collect were made for war, and this is part of their environment.

I think this thread is setting some sort of record for marginal yet unkillable topicality. What's next?

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Very well stated Fearn and Miguel! I am very much inclined to agree that spiritual psychotropics such as peyote would not have been used in battle, nor indeed any hallucinogenics as the detrimental effects in reduction of awareness would have likely been fatal. As noted, Viet Nam did see varying degrees of drug use, mostly used in 'down' time in disassociation, however sometimes in combat situations, and unfortunately we can never know how much loss of life may have occurred in these tragic circumstances, perhaps as a result.

While the field of esoteric and philosophical topics is agreeably expanded to the farthest boundaries of connection to weaponry, again, we are considering man himself as a weapon and better understanding this can help in the little discussed topic of the psychological applications to weapons themselves.

It is a good thing to know that at last the military is beginning to understand the tremendously debilitatiing effects that can cause soldiers terrible difficulty in reassimilating into civilian life. I have seen these very effects and there is little can can be said to accurately describe these often very deep psychological wounds, which defy recognition outwardly, thus elude attempts in trying to heal them.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? xxx In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

What I'll relate below is every bit true, and some people will find this amusing, for sure.

Our mother said that during her teen years (1950s), it was pretty ordinary for women (in the Philippines) to carry in their purse a sewing needle or pin, as an improvised 'weapon'.

The situation being prepared for is this -- in public gatherings or queues in a theater for instance, an occasional pervert (or horny teen) makes use of the tightly packed crowd as an excuse to 'accidentally' touch or bump maidens. And so that pin or needle comes in handy, both as a deterrent and as an actual ethnographic weapon if needed.

They must have read about the porcupine when they were young!

[fearn]

Porcupine, or stingray?

F

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fearn

Porcupine, or stingray?

Yes, that's it!

On the idea of the brain as the main weapon, I've just finished leafing through a Tausug-English Dictionary (1994, Summer Institute of Linguistics) --

UTUK: noun. brain

UTAK: noun. bolo

UTUD: verb. cut off a part of something

In the Tagalog (Luzon) dialect, 'utak' means brain.

So I was thinking, maybe it's not all coincidence -- perhaps the Tausugs' forefathers of long long time ago (like other cultures elsewhere) had realized that the mind is the first and foremost weapon ...

PS - I'll be opening another thread, on Tausug terms for blades, combat, etc. There's one term there for a particular never-heard-before sword (at least to me) that defies present classification. Maybe with everybody's 'utuk' and 'utak' collaborating, we can figure out that mystery blade.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Migualdiaz, Just tell the immigration guys you're Navajo. I've had Navajo friends be mistaken for Asian by Asians.

Thanks for that tip!

And I just checked out the pics of Navajos and they even look some of the uncles and aunts And I of course enjoyed watching the Navajo "windtalkers" in that Nicholas Cage movie.

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Migueldiaz, I thought they'd actually tested these two theories on the BBC (berserkers: drunk or on magic mushrooms) ...

Fearn, thanks a lot for this info! I'd better search Youtube on whether they have clips of that.

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thanks migueldiaz... my how far have we gotten from shit-knife? At least we're still borderline still on topic with the drugs! ...

Acc. to contemporary brain researchers, a brain's flash of thought is not linear (e.g., like a bowling ball traveling down the lane). Rather, they say it's like a flash of electricity that radiates in all directions in 3D. So I think we are all just being L. da Vinci thinkers here

This is not of course to abuse the kindness and liberality of the mods in allowing some bit of freewheeling discussion

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still interesting stuff guys, some of it gettin' kinda weird, but as we get into topics like pyschological effects in battle, and here and there the essence of weaponry as applied, the degree of pertinance stubbornly holds ...

Jim, this long post of yours is super. What would we do without you?

I read your post several times, in fact. And John Keegan's The Face of Battle is also one of my favorite books by the way!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for those very kind words Migueldiaz!!! That means a lot. Actually I enjoyed writing on the topic and it helped me realize the importance of what is being discussed here.
The late Professor Keegan was one of the most brilliant writers I have read, and his ability to present true dimension in his work can only be described as magnificent, for lack of better words.

All the best,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for those very kind words Migueldiaz!!! That means a lot. Actually I enjoyed writing on the topic and it helped me realize the importance of what is being discussed here. The late Professor Keegan was one of the most brilliant writers I have read, and his ability to present true dimension in his work can only be described as magnificent, for lack of better words.

The pleasure is really ours. Thanks again, Jim

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The psychological effect of the appearance of many weapons is well established, and this has been discussed many times over the years here, however,the psychological state of the warrior himself however, has not. He, as a virtual living weapon, is essentially the topic here ...

Indeed. The more I think about it, the more it becomes evident that a man's mindset is really his primary weapon.

Give a determined Tausug Moro a toothbrush for his weapon and I'm sure he can still do a lot of damage -- and I don't mean to be facetious in saying that.

As we often hear, the battle is first fought in the mind.

And generals supposedly look into the eyes of their troops on the eve of the battle, to predict whether they will win the battle or not.

So maybe this is where the conditioning of the mind (whether self-induced or via botanicals) comes in. What I mean is that having realized the paramount importance of the mindset, a leader or a warrior strives to reach a certain psychological state, if he is to withstand the rigors and influence the outcome of something important he's about to do (e.g., going into battle).

And the mind is a pretty powerful instrument as we all know. What I excerpted below is somewhat related, as the police officers' account amply illustrates how our brain acts as a weapon in concert with a physical weapon, in extraordinary circumstances.

The account was taken from the bestselling book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, which in turn quoted Into the Kill Zone, by David Klinger, a University of Missouri criminologist --

Well over 90% of police go over their careers without firing a gun. For those 10% who get to shoot it out, their experience turns out to be quite intense, as follows.

First interview, about a police officer and his partner Dan, in which the suspect is in the act of attacking Dan --

He [the criminal] looked up and saw me and said, "Oh, sh**." Not like, "Oh, sh** [I'm scared]" but "Oh, sh** [here's somebody else I gotta kill], real aggressive and mean. Instead of continuing to push the gun at Dan's head, he started to bring it around on me.

This all happened real fast, in milliseconds.

And at the same time, I was bringing my gun up. Dan was still fighting with him and the only thought that came through my mind was, Oh dear God, don't let me hit Dan.

I fired five rounds. My vision changed as I started to shoot.

It went from seeing the whole picture, to seeing just the suspect's head. Everything else just disappeared. I didn't see Dan anymore, I didn't see anything else. All I can see was the suspect's head.

I saw four of my five rounds hit.

The first one hit him in his left eyebrow. It opened up a hole, and the guy's head snapped back and he said, "Oooh!" like "Oooh, you got me." He still continued to turn the gun toward me. And I fired my second round. I saw a red dot right below the base of his left eye. And his head kind of turned sideways.

I fired another round. It hit on the outside of his left eye, and his eye exploded, just ruptured, and came out. My fourth round hit just in front of his left ear. The third round has moved his head even further sideways to me. And when the fourth round hit, I saw a red dot open on the side of his head then close up.

I did not see where my last round went. Then I heard the guy fall backwards, and hit the ground.

Second interview, from another police officer:

When he started towards us, it was almost like in slow motion, and everything went into a tight focus. When he made his move, my whole body just tensed up. I don't remember having any feeling from my chest down. Everything was focused forward to watch and react to my target.

Talk about an adrenaline rush. Everything tightened up, and all my senses were directed forward at the man running at us with a gun. My vision was focused on his torso and the gun. I couldn't tell you what his left hand was doing. I have no idea. I was watching the gun, the gun was coming down in front of his chest area.

And that's when I did my first shots. I didn't hear a thing. Not one thing.

Allen [?] had fired one round, when I shot my first pair but I didn't hear him shoot. He shot two more rounds when I fired the second time but I didn't hear any of those rounds either. We stopped shooting when he hit the floor and slid into me.

Then I was on my feet standing over the guy. I don't even remember pushing myself up. All I know, the next thing I know, I was standing on two feet, looking down on the guy. I don't know how I got there. Whether I pushed down with my hands, or whether I pulled up my knees from underneath. I don't know.

But once I was up, I was hearing things again, because I can hear brass still clinking on the tile floor.

Time has also returned to normal by then, because it has slowed down during the shooting. That started as soon as he started towards us. Even though I knew he was running at us, it looked like he was moving in slow motion.

Damnest thing I ever saw.

Hence, it now appears that "bullet time" in the Matrix movie series has a basis after all.

A Formula One race car driver also supposedly experiences the same time dilation phenomenon.

PS - I just remembered this ... In a Godfather movie (can't recall if it was Part 1 or 2), an assassin successfully killed an enemy boss by employing a good game plan and using the latter's own eyeglasses as weapon. I rest my case