Sumbawa keris for enjoy and discussion

[Sajen]

I want to share this Sumbawa keris with you for enjoy and discussion.
Your comments are welcome.

sajen

[Sajen]

More pics. Sorry, the pictures not anymore in right order.

[Battara]

How old is this keris? Looks like it is for court wear.

[Gustav]

It is something, that really interests me.

In last time there are many Sumbawa kerisses with such silvery samplengs, from Sumbawa and Lombok.
Most of them also have toli-toli. I don't believe, they all are old.

Is there a possibility to recognize the older ones? Is this sampleng old (it looks to me older)? Is the toli-toli old? It seems to be slightly different to this sampleng.

A nice wood grain!

A very interesting blade, I have never seen such out-of-bugis-influence Sumbawa blade before. How long is it?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

How old is this keris? Looks like it is for court wear.

Hello Battara,

I don't know exacly the age of this keris. The hilt I added later, original the keris have had a nice wooden hilt with pendokok from silver. So maybe the hilt isn't old like all other. I think that the sheat is original to the blade. The wooden warangka with the top from black horn have a nice old patina. The blade is maybe a traded Java blade.

sajen

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

It is something, that really interests me.

In last time there are many Sumbawa kerisses with such silvery samplengs, from Sumbawa and Lombok.
Most of them also have toli-toli. I don't believe, they all are old.

Is there a possibility to recognize the older ones? Is this sampleng old (it looks to me older)? Is the toli-toli old? It seems to be slightly different to this sampleng.

A nice wood grain!

A very interesting blade, I have never seen such out-of-bugis-influence Sumbawa blade before. How long is it?

Hi Gustav,

have to agree with you, I also don't think that they all old while the construction most of the time is very good and fine.
When I look to my keris I am sure that it's an old one and that the sheat is worked for this blade. I get the handle to the same time and added it to the keris because I think that it fits very good (also silver, same stones, I think ruby). The white stones are inten, they cratch glass.
The blade is maybe a traded blade from Java, maybe Mr. Maisey can confirm this. The blade is 34 cm long without pesi.

sajen

[Gustav]

Hello Sajen,

I like the luk of this blade very much, they are really graceful (to me).

This hilt is a little bit "to much" for me, I think, such a hilt would match a warangka, which also repoussed with silver (but the tastes are different).

Were it possible to see a picture of the original hilt?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hello Sajen,

I like the luk of this blade very much, they are really graceful (to me).

Thank you Gustav, I also like the blade from shape and pamor.
Here a picture with remote toli toli.

sajen

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The blade is maybe a traded blade from Java, maybe Mr. Maisey can confirm this. The blade is 34 cm long without pesi.

sajen

I was wondering about that Sajen .

[A. G. Maisey]

From what I can see in the photos this blade does look like Jawa.

Having said that I will now say this:-

I have not studied keris from Sumbawa in depth.

I know what people living in Jawa and Bali regard as Sumbawa keris; I have seen photos of Sumbawa keris in a couple of books; I have a first edition of Stone, in which the illustrations are vastly better than in the later editions, and there are several keris attributed to Sumbawa shown in this book.

Based upon my extremely limited knowledge I cannot see any resemblance between this keris, and what I understand to be a Sumbawa keris.

I do know this:- certain dealers in Surabaya and Jogja assemble rare, unusual, and highly desireable keris from a mixture of genuine old parts and newly manufactured parts that have been carefully aged. These creations are then often marketed as having come from an area of the Archipelago that is not well known, and about which almost nothing exists to assist in verification of originality of keris.

In the case of a keris such as this one, I would want certification of provenance before I would accept that it is a real Sumbawa keris. Some of that work in the dress looks decidedly Jawa to me.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

The hilt on this piece reminds me of a shop in Gianyar which sells similarly-constructed hilts which are sold as Bugis.

Best,

[Sajen]

Hello all,

I've bought this keris 2003 from a Bugis who don't have had a shop. This is unfortunately the only provenance I have. Like I write before, the handle I changed byself, it's possible that this handle is recent, I also know this handles from Celuk. I will post pictures from the original handle later. Yesterday I did some research in the forum, here is a link I want to remember: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sumbawa
The wooden part of the sheat is old, this I believe and the blade fits perfect inside the sheat, from this I will post also a picture later.
Pendok and toli toli is difficult to say, maybe old, maybe recent. What I have seen yesterday, the pendok seems to be typical for Sumbawa keris. Here some pictures I copied from the forum (hope the former owner forgive me). You can see nearly the same motifs.

Mr. Maisey, you can explain me what at this dress look Javanese to you?

[Sajen]

Here the pictures of the "original" hilt and a close up how the blade fits inside the sheat.

[A. G. Maisey]

The workmanship in the hilt and pendok both look like Javanese workmanship to me.I am not talking about style here, but about the way in which elements of the work have been completed.

If that wooden hilt is the hilt that the keris came with, I'd be inclined to refit it.

[Gustav]

Hello Sajen,

this wooden hilt is nice.

Another thing - it seems to me, that the selut of this "original" hilt and toli-toli are pretty similar in style, but they are really different to the pendhok.

I think, the possibility this warangka comes from Sumbawa is great. They love such horn on the top and that curled grain.

A question - are the opening in this horn slice and the mouth of warangka identical in size?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hello Sajen,

this wooden hilt is nice.

Another thing - it seems to me, that the selut of this "original" hilt and toli-toli are pretty similar in style, but they are really different to the pendhok.

I think, the possibility this warangka comes from Sumbawa is great. They love such horn on the top and that curled grain.

A question - are the opening in this horn slice and the mouth of warangka identical in size?

Hello Gustav,

yes, identical. The horn piece go deeper inside the wooden part as it's visible from outside. Later I'll post a picture from the keris with the wooden hilt.

sajen

[Sajen]

Here a picture of the keris with the hilt from wood.

[Gustav]

Sajen,

to me it looks really good now

Have you seen this? I think, it would be interesting for you.

http://keris.fotopic.net/c1391296.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sajen,

to me it looks really good now

Have you seen this? I think, it would be interesting for you.

http://keris.fotopic.net/c1391296.html

Gustav,

thank's, yes this hilt fits very good with all other, I every time change between both hilts.
The keris from the link I know from this site, a very nice keris indeed, thank's for the link.

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

All education costs money.

It is not possible to complete even kindergarten satisfactorily unless a child has parents who are able and prepared to spend money.

To gain a Phd., what is the total cost?

This dictum of education costing money holds true in any field that I can think of, and it most definitely holds true in respect of keris. My own education in the keris has cost me far more than I can count, or would want to count.

But I can remember many of the better lessons that I gained along the way. Probably the best single lesson was the exquisite keris singo barong kinatah that I bought from a very well known dealer in Jakarta in about 1974. At that time I had already collected and studied keris for more than 15 years, but my lessons in the keris had been learnt outside Indonesia, and outside the Javanese keris trade.

It took until about 1980 before I had gained sufficient knowledge to understand that the superb keris singo barong that I bought in Jakarta some years previously was in fact a total falsification. In fact, I learnt this by meeting the man who had very probably carried out the falsification, and who lived in Jln. Wates in Jogjakarta; I am quite comfortable in giving this information, as the gentleman of whom I speak left the land of the living some years ago.

Perhaps the best place to gain an education in the keris is in the market place, which means of course that our teachers will be dealers, at least in the first instance. However, perhaps the lesson taught by that dealer, will not become obvious until some later date, as was the case with the singo barong I bought during the time I was still in kindergarten.

Alternatively, there is the choice not to learn at all, but simply to believe whatever we will.

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

Thank you Alan for sharing your experience. It would give us new collectors very good points to ponder on.

Hello Sajen,

I had never handled this type of keris before, hope you dont mind me giving some opinions on this.

I think the sheath is not made for the blade. The original sheath mouth is too big for the blade, so someone had enlarged the opening and glued a piece of horn on top of it creating a new sheath mouth which fits perfectly to the blade and it looks original. Why i say this? It is because the horn on top of a sampir does not have any other function that i can think of than what i had said. Additional part must serve a function in my opinion.

Sorry if i am being too straight foward Sajen.

Regards,
Rasdan

[Marcokeris]

[QUOTE=Gustav]Sajen,

to me it looks really good now

Also I have the same opinion.


....About the Sumbawa keris: i remember that two years ago in Balì I saw many many Sumbawa keris for sale. Really many many keris. The strange thing was that bebore Sumbawa keris were (for me) very difficult to see in Balì (i never had seen one before in Balì). Also the (IMO new) hit similar to Banjarmasin hits i saw for the first time in Bali 4/5 years ago (before one...the year after many)

About sarong ... I remember a few years ago in Taman Sari area (Yogya) I saw two big wooden boxes full of Lombok sarong (very nice work and made by really good wood). The owner told me that they are all new, made in Jawa and right to send to Lombok/Bali market

[Mick]

Here is another one, but with a difference. All of the pictures so far have illustrated the normal reposse metal work. The metal work on this piece is all solder work. This is the reason that I bought this piece which was priced way over my limit for new work. How anyone had the patience to accomplish this task as well as how they actually accomplished it is beyond me.

[David]

Hey Mick. It's always a pleasure when you find the time to drop by the Warung Kopi.....and you usually bring such beauitiful things to look at over my morning coffee.

[Rick]

Amazing work Mick .

[Marcokeris]

Great Great Work

[asomotif]

Nice metal work Mick.

Although I am also suspicious about the whole "Sumbawa" hype, I can imagine you being tempted by this level of workmanship.

As for the Sumbawa Hype, I am far from an expert, but I do visit markets and fairs on a regular basis for the last 15 years or so. but 10 years ago I never saw any keris being named "Sumbawa".
Nor did I see the style with fancy toli toli's, stones etc.

For the last few years they appear on the market, and suprisingly always sold by collectors / traders that visit Indonesia on a regular basis (ie. visiting once or twice a year).

Traders that get their stuff from estate sales and from elderly people cleaning up the house, never come up with Sumbawa material.

Although sometimes well made, Sumbawa keris' will not end up on my wall
very soon.

[Marcokeris]

About Sumbawa hits:in my experience in Indonesia is very difficult to find this kind of hits (i never was in Sumbawa ) and when i found they are very expencive.
Can some friend show in the forum a good original example?

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Although I am also suspicious about the whole "Sumbawa" hype, I can imagine you being tempted by this level of workmanship.

As for the Sumbawa Hype, I am far from an expert, but I do visit markets and fairs on a regular basis for the last 15 years or so. but 10 years ago I never saw any keris being named "Sumbawa".
Nor did I see the style with fancy toli toli's, stones etc.

For the last few years they appear on the market, and suprisingly always sold by collectors / traders that visit Indonesia on a regular basis (ie. visiting once or twice a year).

Traders that get their stuff from estate sales and from elderly people cleaning up the house, never come up with Sumbawa material.

Although sometimes well made, Sumbawa keris' will not end up on my wall
very soon.

Well, for what it's worth i was just on a popular on-line keris site that is currently selling 3 keris which it has labeled as "Sumbawa". Only one of the 3 has a fancy toli-toli with gemstones. The other 2 have nice but relatively simple Bugis style dress. I have also seen keris with the fancy studded toli-toli attributed to Sulawesi.
Willem, you are, of course, welcome to choose whatever you like to put on you wall, but i am interested in hearing more about what you mean by "Sumbawa" keris and why you feel this way. Are you referring only to the ones with the toli-toli? You say that 10 years ago you never saw any keris attributed to Sumbawa. Is this because keris weren't made in Sumbawa or because no one ever thought it was a good idea to say so before?
As for these nice silver stone-studded examples like Mick's, i am not so quick to dismiss them. If i am not mistaken, unlike most other old weapons that are collected around the world, it is very common and in fact part of the tradition to re-dress an old keris when the old dress wears thin. If the keris is important to you it might be considered disrespectful to leave it in an old, beat-up sheath. I find Mick's dress to be very appealing. The nice gonjo iras blade as well. My questions would be (1) is it an acceptable style within the culture or merely something that is designed to attract the eye of foreign collectors and (2) is the quality of the sheath appropriate to the quality of the keris blade itself. With Mick's it seems so. So often we see old junky blades redressed in fancy attire and sold as "important" keris strictly to attract buyers in the collectors market. But if a nice old keris is nicely re-dressed in well-crafted and stylistically correct clothing that is appealing to my eye i don't think i have a problem with that.

[Gustav]

Oncemore the Sumbawa hilts of Sajen, Ganjawulung and Marcokeris from another thread. To me they are like a sort of hybris of a bugis kerdas at the basis and Java yudowinatan or Bali bondolan like "head", often with a "bridge".