composite miquelet hunting rifle.

cornelistromp · 24th August 2009, 06:26 PM

HI Michael,

thank you for the comments only one small note on the date.
this rifle was owned by Philipp Carl count of Erbach who lived between 1677-1736. I'm sure he did not use it after his dead

The rifle was dated by Keith Neil and by Christies as a late 17THC rifle.
I presume this is based of the very thick butt type and the flat engraved counter plate.

regards from Holland

Pukka Bundook · 26th August 2009, 01:54 PM

Cornelistromp,

Lovely rifle!
Very high quality twisted barrel. Very nice stock, the sort of gun one has to pick up and handle!

I would have to agree with the experts, very late 17th C.
The bridle for the cock is a very effective and unusual arrangement. Altogether lovely!

Great provenance too...
Congratulations!!

Richard.

Matchlock · 27th August 2009, 04:01 PM

Hi Cornelis and Richard,

I beg to differ but brass mounts were not common with sporting guns in the 17th century; they were iron instead.

Moreover, late 17th and early 18th century triggers used to be broader and end in a pronounced scroll, only to name a few dating criteria.

The thick butt and butt plate were still in use well up into the 1720's-30's.

Last, as we know that the owner of the gun died in 1736 and I gave a tentative date of 'ca. 1740' I think I got quite well near the facts. The earliest possible date for the stock would in my opinion be 'ca. 1730'.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 27th August 2009, 08:09 PM

Hi Michael,

maybe you are right with your dating, however it is not easy without a lock
as the same period of the stock.
never the less I noticed a few features of this rifle that make me point at the end of the 17thC.

the straight trigger (without the Louis XIV scroll) has been used frequently from 1650 to around 1690. the earliest pistols with these type of trigger I can recall are the ivory stocked maastricht pistols.(1650-1680) Around 1690-1750 the scroll type came into fashion and the straight trigger reappeared in the third quarter of the 18thC.

after 1680 guilded brass mounts were often used next to the more common iron mounts but very typical for the the last decade of the 17thC is the flat
engraved counter-lock plate which disappeared almost totally in the first half of the 18thC.
The baluster shaped ramrod pipes are a very good dating feature of the end of the 17thC. this baluster shaped ramrod pipes were replaced by faceted shaped ramrod pipes in the first half of the 18thC.

taking above into consideration together with the butt which, whilst retaining the cheek piece and butt trap, has the outline and "inflated" thickness characterizing French style guns of the 1680s. make me date this gun 40years earlier then 1730.

best regards from Holland

27th August 2009, 08:09 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, maybe you are right with your dating, however it is not easy without a lock as the same period of the stock. never the less I noticed a few features of this rifle that make me point at the end of the 17thC. the straight trigger (without the Louis XIV scroll) has been used frequently from 1650 to around 1690. the earliest pistols with these type of trigger I can recall are the ivory stocked maastricht pistols.(1650-1680) Around 1690-1750 the scroll type came into fashion and the straight trigger reappeared in the third quarter of the 18thC. after 1680 guilded brass mounts were often used next to the more common iron mounts but very typical for the the last decade of the 17thC is the flat engraved counter-lock plate which disappeared almost totally in the first half of the 18thC. The baluster shaped ramrod pipes are a very good dating feature of the end of the 17thC. this baluster shaped ramrod pipes were replaced by faceted shaped ramrod pipes in the first half of the 18thC. taking above into consideration together with the butt which, whilst retaining the cheek piece and butt trap, has the outline and "inflated" thickness characterizing French style guns of the 1680s. make me date this gun 40years earlier then 1730. best regards from Holland Attached Images

24th August 2009, 06:26 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	HI Michael, thank you for the comments only one small note on the date. this rifle was owned by Philipp Carl count of Erbach who lived between 1677-1736. I'm sure he did not use it after his dead The rifle was dated by Keith Neil and by Christies as a late 17THC rifle. I presume this is based of the very thick butt type and the flat engraved counter plate. regards from Holland

26th August 2009, 01:54 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Cornelistromp, Lovely rifle! Very high quality twisted barrel. Very nice stock, the sort of gun one has to pick up and handle! I would have to agree with the experts, very late 17th C. The bridle for the cock is a very effective and unusual arrangement. Altogether lovely! Great provenance too... Congratulations!! Richard.

27th August 2009, 04:01 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis and Richard, I beg to differ but brass mounts were not common with sporting guns in the 17th century; they were iron instead. Moreover, late 17th and early 18th century triggers used to be broader and end in a pronounced scroll, only to name a few dating criteria. The thick butt and butt plate were still in use well up into the 1720's-30's. Last, as we know that the owner of the gun died in 1736 and I gave a tentative date of 'ca. 1740' I think I got quite well near the facts. The earliest possible date for the stock would in my opinion be 'ca. 1730'. Best, Michael