On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

KuKulzA28 · 17th August 2009, 01:18 AM

very cool, thanks for posting this up!

fearn · 30th August 2009, 05:16 AM

Bumping this one up, because in the US, National Geographic channel is running an hour-long program on Wade Davis working with the aborigines in Arnhem Land. No hallucinogens, but they do show spear-making and spear use.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 09:39 PM

This thread, which began with a sort of whimsical, yet interesting topic, has evolved into somewhat the pinnacle of off topic digression

...but I confess to having followed it with ever increasing fascination.
I am constantly amazed at the incredible core of knowledge on such a vast array of fields here, many of course not directly related to weapons.

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

One of my favorite areas in examining arms has always been markings and symbolism, and understanding these often leads down incredibly esoteric and even occult paths. This is especially the case in American Indian culture as well as Spanish colonial situations, where in many cases these have melded together.

I could not resist following the Castaneda topic, which led me to the American Indian religions that follow the use of peyote and some of the other hallucinogenics, and its development from prehistoric times in America's southwest and northern Mexico. This leads to Meso American cultures, including the Aztecs and Olmecs, and the influences that evolved into the American Indian and Mexican cultures as well as Spanish, which in many cases included....weaponry.

Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber in thier 'Harnitschstudian' (Studies in Armour) from 1937-1955, convincingly explained that "...rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The study of art of course includes religion and all material culture, including that of folk religion, which as discusses, may often include botanicals that in turn include hallucinogens.

Just my thoughts, and thanks for the intriguing discussion....really enjoyed the adventure and added some great dimension to my present studies in Spanish colonial and American southwest study.

Best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 30th August 2009, 10:04 PM

The last practicing Kiowa horn doctor (a form of blood letting) uses buffalo horns handed down through her family and for cutting instruments, slivers of glass from broken brown (they have to be brown) booze bottles instead of splinters of buffalo bones like they used to. I use broken glass to scrape down bow staves, and brown glass is harder and sharper based on my admittedly subjective experience.

What about the use of gar's teeth for scratching at the SE ceremonial grounds? Would that count as an improvised "knife"?

As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

Montino Bourbon · 31st August 2009, 01:28 AM

Weapons are often loaded with shamanic power, and even so-called straightforward religious energy. The aspiring knight stayed up all night praying over his weapons, and there are lots of instances of various kinds of power in weapons. Keris is just one example.

Shaka Zulu totally changed South African combat methods from basically ritualistic spear throwing from a distance to a very methodical and effective military science. The long throwing spear was discarded for the short stabbing assegai, and the first of these, which he commissioned (Supposedly after a vision) was tempered with various animal entrails by his ally, the medicine woman Isangoma.

Castaneda's teacher talked about leaving weapons where spirits could touch them and empower them.

The ordinary and extraordinary realities exist at the same time and in the same place. And weapons are full of that kind of energy. In fact, I would say that weapons are one of the primary sources and repositories of shamanic energy.

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2009, 02:01 AM

Very nicely done guys!!! Talk about bringin it around.......beautiful.

Aiontay, its always great to learn more on the true American Indian perspective, and Montino, well placed notes on the shamanic connections to weapons.

All the very best,
Jim

migueldiaz · 31st August 2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

Thanks Jim, and all of us couldn't agree more of course

When I started the serious study of Phil. ethnic weapons, I thought I would just be dealing with blades. Now I see myself (reluctantly) studying the weaving patterns for instance of the many Phil. ethnic groups.

It's becoming one heck of a journey, but I never regretted it and I'm definitely enjoying the ride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

... As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

Thanks for the info aiontay on the improvised knife and blood-letting. That's quite interesting!

It's also interesting to think that our peoples may be related, if certain theories of anthropologists are to be believed.

By that I meant the hypothesis that from Asia, a group of people crossed the land bridge during the Ice Age into Alaska. Or perhaps your people would have a totally different belief, in which case it will also be interesting to know about it. Thanks in advance!

By the way, can you kindly please elaborate please on the last sentence of your post?

On another matter, on the attempt to blend the supernatural with the physical, I'd like to repeat this account I first quoted here, describing an Igorot "amazon priestess" in action in the battlefield:

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

30th August 2009, 05:16 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Bumping this one up, because in the US, National Geographic channel is running an hour-long program on Wade Davis working with the aborigines in Arnhem Land. No hallucinogens, but they do show spear-making and spear use. Last edited by fearn; 31st August 2009 at 01:46 AM.

31st August 2009, 01:28 AM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	a very interesting thread... Weapons are often loaded with shamanic power, and even so-called straightforward religious energy. The aspiring knight stayed up all night praying over his weapons, and there are lots of instances of various kinds of power in weapons. Keris is just one example. Shaka Zulu totally changed South African combat methods from basically ritualistic spear throwing from a distance to a very methodical and effective military science. The long throwing spear was discarded for the short stabbing assegai, and the first of these, which he commissioned (Supposedly after a vision) was tempered with various animal entrails by his ally, the medicine woman Isangoma. Castaneda's teacher talked about leaving weapons where spirits could touch them and empower them. The ordinary and extraordinary realities exist at the same time and in the same place. And weapons are full of that kind of energy. In fact, I would say that weapons are one of the primary sources and repositories of shamanic energy.

17th August 2009, 01:18 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	very cool, thanks for posting this up!

30th August 2009, 09:39 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	This thread, which began with a sort of whimsical, yet interesting topic, has evolved into somewhat the pinnacle of off topic digression ...but I confess to having followed it with ever increasing fascination. I am constantly amazed at the incredible core of knowledge on such a vast array of fields here, many of course not directly related to weapons. One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related. One of my favorite areas in examining arms has always been markings and symbolism, and understanding these often leads down incredibly esoteric and even occult paths. This is especially the case in American Indian culture as well as Spanish colonial situations, where in many cases these have melded together. I could not resist following the Castaneda topic, which led me to the American Indian religions that follow the use of peyote and some of the other hallucinogenics, and its development from prehistoric times in America's southwest and northern Mexico. This leads to Meso American cultures, including the Aztecs and Olmecs, and the influences that evolved into the American Indian and Mexican cultures as well as Spanish, which in many cases included....weaponry. Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber in thier 'Harnitschstudian' (Studies in Armour) from 1937-1955, convincingly explained that "...rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period". The study of art of course includes religion and all material culture, including that of folk religion, which as discusses, may often include botanicals that in turn include hallucinogens. Just my thoughts, and thanks for the intriguing discussion....really enjoyed the adventure and added some great dimension to my present studies in Spanish colonial and American southwest study. Best regards, Jim

30th August 2009, 10:04 PM	#4
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The last practicing Kiowa horn doctor (a form of blood letting) uses buffalo horns handed down through her family and for cutting instruments, slivers of glass from broken brown (they have to be brown) booze bottles instead of splinters of buffalo bones like they used to. I use broken glass to scrape down bow staves, and brown glass is harder and sharper based on my admittedly subjective experience. What about the use of gar's teeth for scratching at the SE ceremonial grounds? Would that count as an improvised "knife"? As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

31st August 2009, 02:01 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Very nicely done guys!!! Talk about bringin it around.......beautiful. Aiontay, its always great to learn more on the true American Indian perspective, and Montino, well placed notes on the shamanic connections to weapons. All the very best, Jim