On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

Anyway, I know more about shamanism than I'm willing to talk about here, but that's only half my point. A bigger point is that we're assuming that, because they're hallucinogens, the people must have been hallucinating to hear the song.

hmmm....well i, for one am not assuming that. Firstly i prefer to refer to these substances as entheogens. Hallucinations imply something that is not really there. I do not believe that is the case with the visions produced by these substances. Nor do i believe that these substances are necessary in order to hear the plants "sing", but they have been know to guide the people to the knowledge of this kind of listening.
And i guess you are right, we do already have a couple of leukemia drugs from tropically plants so i guess it makes no sense to keep looking for one that might actually cure the disease.

[David]

The ice knife idea is cool , but if you already have the chisel, rock or stick needed to fashion it i think you might make a better, more permanent knife out of them.
Blow guns are also neat things, but i am afraid i do not have any. True though that we haven't had much discussion of them on these forums.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....well i, for one am not assuming that. Firstly i prefer to refer to these substances as entheogens. Hallucinations imply something that is not really there. I do not believe that is the case with the visions produced by these substances. Nor do i believe that these substances are necessary in order to hear the plants "sing", but they have been know to guide the people to the knowledge of this kind of listening.
And i guess you are right, we do already have a couple of leukemia drugs from tropically plants so i guess it makes no sense to keep looking for one that might actually cure the disease.

Hi David,

I used to work at a hospital in the Bay Area, in the early 90s, when AIDS was really becoming epidemic. A doctor had gotten a birthday card that said, "Remember when childhood leukemia was lethal, and sex wasn't?" That was back in the 1970s. Childhood leukemia is now one of the most curable cancers, thanks in part to vincristine and similar plant drugs. I think of it as a success story, even though we don't have a 100% cure rate.

Now, if there was a drug out there to cure stupidity, I could use that!

As for what to call mind-altering plants, you're right. If I call them entheogens, someone gets mad, if I call them hallucinogens, someone gets mad, if I call them medicines, someone gets mad, if I call them drugs, someone gets mad, and if I call them poisons, someone gets mad. This is not to insult you in any way, but to point out that such plants are a touchy subject for our society, and I don't think there's a neutral way to talk about them. At least the term hallucinogens has been around long enough for you to know what I'm talking about, more or less. In my mind, that shared communication is reason enough to use the term.

Best,

F

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

Now, if there was a drug out there to cure stupidity, I could use that!

Ain't that the truth.
And please don't misunderstand. I am in no way angered by your use of the term hallucinogen. Just explaining my point of view. And i do understand that entheogen is not a word that the general masses would recognize.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fearn

... Hope this helps. It's nothing like a linear calculation. It's more like gold-mining.

Fearn, it wasn't helpful. It was super Thanks for the elaboration.

And being a mining engineer who in my younger days had been blasting gold veins deep within the bowels of our mountains, I know exactly what you mean.

But hopefully not hoping against hope, I still look forward to the day when more drugs will be discovered, be they coming from plants or insects of the rain forests or from elsewhere.

Originally Posted by David

I believe that even you and i would be able to hear the plants singing under the moonlight if we were to participate in a peyote ceremony.

Then what are we waiting for?

Earlier all I know was that the day destroys the night, and night divides the day. Now I feel like breaking through to the other side

But as mentioned, enough talking about shamans and chemically-assisted meditations!

On a more serious note, I'm sure we all agree with Vandoo when he said:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

FOR ALL MAN'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND KNOWLEGE IT WOULD BE JUST A SMALL SPECK AMONG ALL THAT GOD HAS CREATED. WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT TO LEARN AND REALLY ARENT THAT SMART AFTER ALL.

Referring to Davis again in the video, it's of course true that our present techie world is but just 300 years old. With all the progress it has made, I hope people will also not forget to tap into the wisdom of the ancients. Their knowledge gathered over a course of thousands of years, is to me a more valuable gold mine ... which reminds me of one of the greatest tragedies ever, the burning of the ancient library of Alexandria *sigh*

We would have found a lot of info there for sure regarding metallurgy, ancient weapons, if we are to go back to the subject as we should ...

[migueldiaz]

Links for those wishing to know more about Wade Davis:

The one we all saw earlier -- Video: Endangered cultures (2003)

The story continues -- Video: Worldwide beliefs and rituals (2008)

Interview with Anthropologist Wade Davis

Links pertaining to Wade Davis

[migueldiaz]

I often wonder how a particular culture can be preserved in this day and age ...

For instance, watch this short video of a modern samurai who displays amazing feats with his katana.

Is he cheapening the proud heritage of the samurai by such seeming crass commercialism? Or is he in fact ensuring in his own little way that the ways of the samurai are not forgetten?

[fearn]

Interesting synchronicity.

This week in Science News, one of the feature stories is "Venom hunters: scientists probe toxins, revealing the healing powers of biochemical weapons."

So that's where the bioprospecting action is right now, the rapidly growing field of "venomics" (and I'm not making the name up), a combination of the studies of venom effects and the genes and genomics behind it. Interesting stuff, if you're into bioscience.

If you're not into it, just think of it as a way of turning pit viper venom into heart medications, or just a 21st century way of turning swords into plowshares.

Best,

Frank