Hudiedao

[harimauhk]

A friend of mine who practises Wing Chun here says Baat Jam Do should integrate seamlessly with the standard forms practiced empty handed and simply become an extension of the body, which would make shorter bladed weapons more maneuverable and natural IMO.

There are plenty of training baat jam do available here, and lots of sharp ones too, but the quality is pretty iffy which is why I'm looking elsewhere. The ones available on the local market go for about $75 US. I'm not looking to pay $850 US for quality ones though. I might actually get the Cold Steel ones since they are good value and Cold Steel do make good quality knives.

[KuKulzA28]

It's interesting that Wing Chun aims to have the close-quarters weapons flow seamlessly from empty hand technique... because many Filipino martial arts say that their knife-techniques should flow easily into empty-hand moves... Approaching similar goals from different training standpoints?

But again, to my previous question:

Did the "river-pirates" have formal training in their use?

I've given this some thought so I'll share them... If the 'river-pirates' can be divided up into two types, seasonal and full-time, then it opens up even more possibilities. If they are seasonal like their seaside kin, then it seems likely that when the harvest is done or the great catches of the season complete (migratory fish schools), there is enough down-time for piracy. Well, in that case, it is likely that those villagers had some sort of "village kung fu" for the purpose of defending their lands and boats. That, and the more determined individuals could perhaps train harder in martial arts during the productive season and then "ply their trade" during the piracy-season. Perhaps? The other side of it is a full-time criminal, who, with his band of pirates, hides out along the riverbanks and in small, near impenetrable places and comes out to raid and pillage. So what do pirates do in their down-time? Practice fighting? Go back to their "normal" lives? Become merchants or smugglers (as some 'pirates' were both)? Eat, drink, smoke, and make love with captured or paid women?

If the services of a martial artist were to be at the pirates' disposal, that could point us in a direction. I know in Taiwan, many martial arts teachers had (maybe still have) connections with local gangs. The same could/can be said about Chinatowns in the USA. However I don't know how far back this 'tradition' goes... and also if it was a widespread practice or just an individual choice.

It is known that locals and pirates coexisted in many cases - perhaps pirates from one hometown enjoedd protection there and support, and perhaps they helped "redistribute" (forcefully) the wealth in the region. According to Tonio Andrade's How Taiwan Became Chinese, the village that later became Tainan was originally a small hamlet made up of fishermen and pirates. If you were a pirate who was friendly with a local village, perhaps the shifu-criminal training relationship could then develop? Perhaps in a river-and-sea environment, these pirates were the combination of smuggler, merchant, pirate, and militia for the seaside and riverside villages of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwan - and not always seen in a bad way by the locals?

Chances are there were no hard-fast rules, and some were the equivalent of a village raiding party, some the militia, some just seasonal pirates with whom some villages had some friendliness, and some the rulers of the region...

Just some thoughts

[fearn]

Hi Kukulz,

I think we can break the question down into a couple of parts.

1. Was there a "river pirate kung fu?" I'd guess probably not, at least in the sense of having a structured school with long sets and a lineage. While I'm quite sure they trained together, the thing is, on a boat, there isn't much room. That limits the kinds of things you can do with any weapon, which negates the need for a training school. I'd guess that a lot of the pirate's blade work was sort of like the Nepalis and their khukuris. They're always using their blades for whatever is needed, so they're naturally adapt at basic combat (i.e. they can hit whatever they swing at, because they use their blades daily for all sorts of things, and that gives them a high level of basic practice).

2. A lot of riverside villages would have had a resident martial artist to help train the village/clan militia (this was the situation in China for centuries), and I'm sure some of those people trained pirates. Possibly, some of those martial artists were current or former pirates themselves. I'd also bet that there was a lot of communication between the pirates and the martial artists, and they'd talk about what did and didn't work in various situations, possibly even train together. As I noted above, I don't think it quite rose to the level of a pirate kung fu school though.

Best,

F

[harimauhk]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

It's interesting that Wing Chun aims to have the close-quarters weapons flow seamlessly from empty hand technique... because many Filipino martial arts say that their knife-techniques should flow easily into empty-hand moves... Approaching similar goals from different training standpoints?

But again, to my previous question:

Did the "river-pirates" have formal training in their use?

I've given this some thought so I'll share them... If the 'river-pirates' can be divided up into two types, seasonal and full-time, then it opens up even more possibilities. If they are seasonal like their seaside kin, then it seems likely that when the harvest is done or the great catches of the season complete (migratory fish schools), there is enough down-time for piracy. Well, in that case, it is likely that those villagers had some sort of "village kung fu" for the purpose of defending their lands and boats. That, and the more determined individuals could perhaps train harder in martial arts during the productive season and then "ply their trade" during the piracy-season. Perhaps? The other side of it is a full-time criminal, who, with his band of pirates, hides out along the riverbanks and in small, near impenetrable places and comes out to raid and pillage. So what do pirates do in their down-time? Practice fighting? Go back to their "normal" lives? Become merchants or smugglers (as some 'pirates' were both)? Eat, drink, smoke, and make love with captured or paid women?

If the services of a martial artist were to be at the pirates' disposal, that could point us in a direction. I know in Taiwan, many martial arts teachers had (maybe still have) connections with local gangs. The same could/can be said about Chinatowns in the USA. However I don't know how far back this 'tradition' goes... and also if it was a widespread practice or just an individual choice.

It is known that locals and pirates coexisted in many cases - perhaps pirates from one hometown enjoedd protection there and support, and perhaps they helped "redistribute" (forcefully) the wealth in the region. According to Tonio Andrade's How Taiwan Became Chinese, the village that later became Tainan was originally a small hamlet made up of fishermen and pirates. If you were a pirate who was friendly with a local village, perhaps the shifu-criminal training relationship could then develop? Perhaps in a river-and-sea environment, these pirates were the combination of smuggler, merchant, pirate, and militia for the seaside and riverside villages of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwan - and not always seen in a bad way by the locals?

Chances are there were no hard-fast rules, and some were the equivalent of a village raiding party, some the militia, some just seasonal pirates with whom some villages had some friendliness, and some the rulers of the region...

Just some thoughts

In silat Minangkabau, we too are taught to make any weapon work with our kudas and techniques, and it has been interesting to me to see just how well it works. I have tried silat with everything from US police PR-24s (tonfa) to tjabang (sais) to my Thai sword, and they can all be integrated quite well with a little practice.

From what I know of Chinese culture, having grown up around it, organized crime has always been part of life and here in HK, the triads are everywhere--even some police officers are sworn triads, and the entertainment business is one big racket. Bruce Lee himself was connected with the triads. I'm sure there must have been pirates with martial art training, so there might well have been a few baat jam do on pirate ships along China's coastline.

Just looked through this book (http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=...age&q=&f=false) and there is no mention of baat jam do, but who knows?

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks for the simple break-down fearn! Great resource harimaukh.

The part about the pirates' weapons and arsenal was very cool.
Makes me wanna make some of those weapons, if I could....
I could sure put some Chinese pirate stink bombs to good use


So I guess the level of training was uneven and informal... some had more, some had less... some were seasonal... others were full-time pirates with deep connections on the coasts and inland.... all depended on your guan shi... networking as we call it today

[Gavin Nugent]

For your enjoyment.

I enjoy old kungfu movies, all one sided in this movie as is NOT the case in real life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KS18...eature=related

Gav

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by freebooter

For your enjoyment.

I enjoy old kungfu movies, all one sided in this movie as is NOT the case in real life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KS18...eature=related

Gav

HAHAHA I remember that one A good laugh for sure