Hudiedao

[fearn]

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Not meaning to deviate from the topic.... but perhaps that has most to do with two broad factors?

Those being:
1. Fewer and fewer traditional weapons being made and used
2. More and more Chinese martial arts becoming stagnant and falling into dis-use
^- (hence lacking the constant refinement of application and fighting skills)


I mean if few people are allowed to carry 14" blades, very few people make baat-jam-dao, the martial arts behind it haven't been applied and fought with for the past few generations, and it takes quite a bit of training to become wickedly proficient ...it seems inevitable that training will decrease, use of said weapons will decrease, and PROPER use and training of the said blades will diminish.... since there is no need for it. Forms will take on flashy and out-of-place movements, inappropriate weapons used, techniques rarely applied in real combat...

[fearn]

Hi Kukulz,

This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles.

What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles.

True that. I think the great resurgence in Western martial arts, from navaja-fighting to sword-on-sword action, is admirable. Methodically combining fighting skills with old master-at-arms manuals and testing seems to be a great way to work out the techniques and fighting style of the old European battlefields and alleyways.

Originally Posted by fearn

What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs.

My advice for that is to outline the main principles of baat-jam-dao use... Things to keep in mind are close-quarters, closing distance, both hands involved, simultaneous offense-defense, etc. After the main principles have been established, categorize between stabber, chopper, and both. I think interviewing several Hung Gar or Wing Chun practitioners who have been taught the baat jam dao form-set and techniques will help greatly. But be wary when you do because anyone can watch youtube videos and imitate the forms. Fighting skill, or even correctly performed sets, requires more than just that.

Studying this aspect of martial arts can be hard, breaking it down like this... but I wish you the best of luck. I am deeply in something else right now, or I too would be keen on figuring it out. The Hu-die-dao are very interesting Chinese weapons for sure!