Bali keris restored

Jussi M. · 10th August 2009, 08:00 AM

Truly awesome work and an astonishing keris!

Tatyana Dianova · 10th August 2009, 08:18 AM

Thank you all for the kind words

It is a normal size Bali keris, about 40 cm blade lenght. I believe the large handle make it look smaller, but I have tried to match the handle and sheath size...

Sajen · 10th August 2009, 06:39 PM

Hello Tatjana,

very nice keris and a good restoration job.
When I yesterday see this keris and read your words I have to remember my Bali keris I've bought 1994 in Klungkung. This keris have had also very bad corrosion and I've cleaned it also byself and polished it. What's funny that both look from the blade very similar. Your's have 11 luk, my only 7.

sajen

Tatyana Dianova · 11th August 2009, 08:18 AM

Thanks for sharing Sajen. These blades are pretty similar indeed. It is a pity that there seems to be no additional info on them...

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2009, 08:29 AM

Tatyana, what additional information are you seeking?

We cannot reliably date these blades, there is not as far as I am aware a parrallel Balinese system to the Javanese system of tangguh, so we cannot really classify them.

It is probably possible to give them a dhapur, in accordance with the data provided by Lalu Djelengga.

The pamor in both cases is a simple m'lumah style, that most people would call wos wutah.

Yours has the remnants of kinatah work, which probably indicates original ownership by a person with rank.

I doubt that there is much more that anybody could say about these blades --- except that they are very nice, very typical Balinese blades.

Tatyana Dianova · 11th August 2009, 10:10 AM

Alan these few lines of text are really what I've been looking for. This information may be evident to you and other advanced Keris collectors, but there are novices like me whom even this short description is extremely important. Thank you very much for your comments!

Sajen · 11th August 2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tatyana, what additional information are you seeking?

We cannot reliably date these blades, there is not as far as I am aware a parrallel Balinese system to the Javanese system of tangguh, so we cannot really classify them.

It is probably possible to give them a dhapur, in accordance with the data provided by Lalu Djelengga.

The pamor in both cases is a simple m'lumah style, that most people would call wos wutah.

Yours has the remnants of kinatah work, which probably indicates original ownership by a person with rank.

I doubt that there is much more that anybody could say about these blades --- except that they are very nice, very typical Balinese blades.

Hello Mr. Maisey,

isn't the pamor of my keris not a sort of a wengkon?
Here some closeups of the blade.

Regards,
sajen

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2009, 09:07 PM

I don't know that I'd be inclined to call it a wengkon. Yes, it has some characteristics of a wengkon, but we've still got that random pamor below the "wengkon" and the core of the blade.

To be frank, I prefer not to get too involved with the refined niceties of pamor types. I'm pretty relaxed about the whole thing. In the group of people with whom I associate in Jawa, most of whom are dealers, we tend to paint with a rather broad brush.This is somewhat different to the current collector attitude that wants to define and categorise to the Nth. degree. Amongst the people I mostly associate with, if we see anything that is any kind of random pamor, we call it wos wutah. What we call wos wutah, the bulk of collectors in Jawa would probably want to categorise into a multitude of sub-types.

Your blade looked at in cross section, has a core, a layer of random pamor, and one of the layers of contrasting material in that random pamor is marginally thicker than the others.

The question then must be asked:-

did the maker produce this pattern intentionally, attempting to create a wos wutah/wengkon pamor?

or was the folding of the pamor material less than expert and he finished up with a layer of contrasting material on the outside of the forging?

did he then realise that his blade was not going to be thick enough and he added a layer of iron to compensate?

A wengkon is a very difficult pamor to produce. It requires an enormous amount of both forge control and benchwork control. This keris might be the result of a conscious effort to produce a wengkon, but the control is far from good, so it might also be the result of error correction. Since none of us were there looking over the maker's shoulder, I'd say that we can take our own decisions on the matter.

10th August 2009, 06:39 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Tatjana, very nice keris and a good restoration job. When I yesterday see this keris and read your words I have to remember my Bali keris I've bought 1994 in Klungkung. This keris have had also very bad corrosion and I've cleaned it also byself and polished it. What's funny that both look from the blade very similar. Your's have 11 luk, my only 7. sajen Attached Images

10th August 2009, 08:00 AM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Truly awesome work and an astonishing keris!

10th August 2009, 08:18 AM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Thank you all for the kind words It is a normal size Bali keris, about 40 cm blade lenght. I believe the large handle make it look smaller, but I have tried to match the handle and sheath size...

11th August 2009, 08:18 AM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Thanks for sharing Sajen. These blades are pretty similar indeed. It is a pity that there seems to be no additional info on them...

11th August 2009, 08:29 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Tatyana, what additional information are you seeking? We cannot reliably date these blades, there is not as far as I am aware a parrallel Balinese system to the Javanese system of tangguh, so we cannot really classify them. It is probably possible to give them a dhapur, in accordance with the data provided by Lalu Djelengga. The pamor in both cases is a simple m'lumah style, that most people would call wos wutah. Yours has the remnants of kinatah work, which probably indicates original ownership by a person with rank. I doubt that there is much more that anybody could say about these blades --- except that they are very nice, very typical Balinese blades.

11th August 2009, 10:10 AM	#6
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Alan these few lines of text are really what I've been looking for. This information may be evident to you and other advanced Keris collectors, but there are novices like me whom even this short description is extremely important. Thank you very much for your comments!

11th August 2009, 09:07 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I don't know that I'd be inclined to call it a wengkon. Yes, it has some characteristics of a wengkon, but we've still got that random pamor below the "wengkon" and the core of the blade. To be frank, I prefer not to get too involved with the refined niceties of pamor types. I'm pretty relaxed about the whole thing. In the group of people with whom I associate in Jawa, most of whom are dealers, we tend to paint with a rather broad brush.This is somewhat different to the current collector attitude that wants to define and categorise to the Nth. degree. Amongst the people I mostly associate with, if we see anything that is any kind of random pamor, we call it wos wutah. What we call wos wutah, the bulk of collectors in Jawa would probably want to categorise into a multitude of sub-types. Your blade looked at in cross section, has a core, a layer of random pamor, and one of the layers of contrasting material in that random pamor is marginally thicker than the others. The question then must be asked:- did the maker produce this pattern intentionally, attempting to create a wos wutah/wengkon pamor? or was the folding of the pamor material less than expert and he finished up with a layer of contrasting material on the outside of the forging? did he then realise that his blade was not going to be thick enough and he added a layer of iron to compensate? A wengkon is a very difficult pamor to produce. It requires an enormous amount of both forge control and benchwork control. This keris might be the result of a conscious effort to produce a wengkon, but the control is far from good, so it might also be the result of error correction. Since none of us were there looking over the maker's shoulder, I'd say that we can take our own decisions on the matter.