Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

ganjawulung · 10th August 2009, 07:57 AM

Did you use the "sterling arsenic" to stain your Bali blade?

GANJAWULUNG

Tatyana Dianova · 10th August 2009, 08:33 AM

I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...

semar · 10th August 2009, 09:23 AM

hello Tatyana

when you buy warangan its have to look like the warangan one the picteurs
you can buy many warangan but you can not use every warangan to clean your keris some even don`t work

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2009, 11:23 AM

Over more than 30 years I have purchased and used traditional warangan in Solo.

It has never looked like any of the examples I've seen photos of here.

The warangan that has been available in Solo over the last couple of years has been very inconsistent in producing satisfactory results.

Since the early 1960's, and predating my use of Javanese warangan I have used laboratory grade arsenic tri-oxide. This has invariably produced very satisfactory and very consistent results.

Here are examples of these results:-

semar · 10th August 2009, 12:36 PM

this warangan that i show you
comes from a friend of my from surabaya
mij friend cleaning the keris for a living
and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday
you know wich warangan works the best

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2009, 03:17 PM

Semar, I have not purchased warangan in Surabaya.

Please re-read what I wrote so that you will understand clearly what I am saying.

I will repeat my message in the most simple terms possible in order that there can be no misunderstanding:-

1)--- the warangan that I have purchased in Solo, and have used, over a 30 year period does not look like the photos of warangan shown in this thread.

2)--- the warangan currently available in Solo is unreliable in producing satisfactory results.

3)--- since at least 1962 I have stained keris with laboratory quality arsenic trioxide; the results I am able to obtain with this are consistent, and in most cases I get a superior result to that which I am accustomed to seeing from professional blade stainers in Indonesia.

One thing I did not say in my previous post is that I pay to have approximately 100 blades stained during each 12 month period; I normally have to return half of these blades to the tukang because they are unsatisfactory; of the half I return I normally have to return about 15 or 20 blades a second time; of those blades I usually have five or so blades to stain myself. I use laboratory quality arsenic trioxide on these failed blades, and my staining is always successful.

semar · 10th August 2009, 05:24 PM

oke I understand sorry bud my engels is not verry good and thats te reson
that I somtimes not understand whats say in the mail

regards semar

ganjawulung · 11th August 2009, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...

Staining is such an "art". I don't even stain my kerises by myself, although I have "warangan jadi" (ready to use warangan) and I can stain kerises by myself. You need at least all day long, non-stop free time to stain your kerises. Not including cleaning first your blade from rust with coconut's water for couple of days, and then your blades need to be processed with 'mutih' -- brushed and brushed, again and again with 'jeruk nipis' (lime juice) mixed with cream-soap (sorry, I have difficulty in explaining the process). Anyway, staining is not that simple -- just soak the blade into the ready-to-use-warangan... Usually I clean my self the keris blades, and then 'mutih' the kerises. But then, I gave the further process of 'mewarangi' to the specialist.

There are a couple of 'ahli warangan' or keris staining specialists in Jakarta, and of course in Solo, Yogyakarta, Surabaya, Madura, Bali...

Quote:

Originally Posted by semar

this warangan that i show you
comes from a friend of my from surabaya
mij friend cleaning the keris for a living
and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday
you know wich warangan works the best

Yes, usually I bought warangan (more precise, 'chinese' warangan) from Surabayanese friends too. In Solo, people used to buy at a special shop, traditional herb shop such as Akar Sari in Coyudan, not far from Karaton Solo but not as good quality as 'chinese' warangan from Surabaya and Jakarta. I have example of two kinds of warangan. People said, the 'yellowish' one is better...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2009, 04:25 AM

The biggest supplier of warangan in Solo is a "Shop With No Name" --- but everybody knows it as "Toko Vera", in Pasar Gede , one street west of the market. This shop wholesales to other shops in Solo and also sells retail.

Unless somebody is buying outside of Solo and bringing the stuff into Solo themselves, they will be getting their supplies from Toko Vera.

For a long, long time Toko Vera had drums of warangan that was very good stuff, and back a few years, it was not really all that expensive, however, the old stuff eventually ran out, and the only new stuff they could get was from India. As I have already remarked, this new stuff is not very reliable --- sometimes you can get an acceptable job from it, but other times you cannot --- and it is not cheap.

kulbuntet · 11th August 2009, 10:28 PM

I have heard that now days in Jaw also Selenium is used. Because of shortage/price of arsenic. Anny one ever hear about it? If it works must be one of it oxides. Haven't figured it out witch one. Sugestions, please?

And about the arsenic. Like Alan said, Di Arsenic tri Oxide (As2O3) works best, since it is the most agresive...lethal too. 100mg in your body will kill you, when taken oraly, dont know about in to blood stream.. probaly much lower.

than you have Realgar, red to orange AsS, easly bought in mineral shops. The mor red the beter, is what people say.. i got a big chump here of maybe 300Gr red to orange colour.. it works. Just when you make the bath ready.. pulverise the realgar realy good, i use a farmacy mortar to grind. A big hammer does the job too

. and piut the stuff in lime juice. I never put it on a filter.. let the fiber rot.. good for the acid value (PH). En my best tip.. let it stand for atleast a year... other wise it wont work properly... limjuce i white/yellowisch... i should become dark red to black sollution... you will know when you see it when its ready.

The pinkisch mineral, i have seen it. But never used it my self.. And dont know if its a mixture of compounds, or a seperate mineral, cant find anny info about it.

And finaly orpigment a other arsenic mineral yellow colour! As2S3. Never used it my self.. but hear diffent story's about it. The person that learned me.. never want to have it.. since it's not working...other people say otherwise..

reagrds Michel

Ps sterling arsenic is metal arsenic, of non use for us! just looks pretty for mineral collectors. But it wont react. You can make trioxide of it.. but it dangerous.. so i wont tell you more about this

Tatyana Dianova · 12th August 2009, 08:18 AM

Very interesting information indeed... I think I have to sell the piece of 'sterling arsenic' since I am not a mineral collector

David · 12th August 2009, 04:22 PM

Well, as i read through this post i notice a bit of conflicting information here. I am not going to get into a this is "wrong" and this is "right" argument because firstly that's subjective (some people really get results in ways that others don't i suppose) and secondly it's just plain counter-productive. But i will give my own advice and reasoning for how i do it and why i don't follow some of this other advice.
Lab grade arsenic tri-oxide does work best and it is the only method that will provide consistent results. This is because a gram of As2O3 is always the same exact strength each and every time, without any added impurities that might exist in all the various forms of realgar. The only disadvantage that i can see is that it is not always easy to obtain, but i managed to get a hold of some after only a few well placed phone calls, so don't give up if you want to try this. And yes, Michel, it would be in it's most potent form and therefore more deadly. My advice would be, don't stick it in you mouth and definitely don't shoot it in your veins and chances are good that you will be just fine.

Actually, i would have far more fear about grinding it up in a mortar & pestle, or even worse smashing it with a hammer

with pieces flying everywhere as this is more likely to make particles airborne and therefore breathable. If you are grinding this stuff up i would strongly recommend that you wear a surgical mask.
Michel, if you really need to let your solution rest for an entire year before using i see this as another advantage to using As2O3. I usually let mine settle over night and it's good to go. And i am not sure that i can see how letting the pulp rot adds to your acid PH or if that is even necessary if it does.
For those who what to use realgar i wish we could come to some agreement as to what color is best, because we are all over the map here. I have heard that purple is best, red is best, pink is best, orange is best and yellow is best. Well, only one can be best. If i were planning on using the mineral form i would be very confused right now.

10th August 2009, 09:23 AM	#3
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello Tatyana when you buy warangan its have to look like the warangan one the picteurs you can buy many warangan but you can not use every warangan to clean your keris some even don`t work regards semar Attached Images

10th August 2009, 11:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Over more than 30 years I have purchased and used traditional warangan in Solo. It has never looked like any of the examples I've seen photos of here. The warangan that has been available in Solo over the last couple of years has been very inconsistent in producing satisfactory results. Since the early 1960's, and predating my use of Javanese warangan I have used laboratory grade arsenic tri-oxide. This has invariably produced very satisfactory and very consistent results. Here are examples of these results:- Attached Images

10th August 2009, 07:57 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Did you use the "sterling arsenic" to stain your Bali blade? GANJAWULUNG

10th August 2009, 08:33 AM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...

10th August 2009, 12:36 PM	#5
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	this warangan that i show you comes from a friend of my from surabaya mij friend cleaning the keris for a living and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday you know wich warangan works the best regards semar

10th August 2009, 03:17 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Semar, I have not purchased warangan in Surabaya. Please re-read what I wrote so that you will understand clearly what I am saying. I will repeat my message in the most simple terms possible in order that there can be no misunderstanding:- 1)--- the warangan that I have purchased in Solo, and have used, over a 30 year period does not look like the photos of warangan shown in this thread. 2)--- the warangan currently available in Solo is unreliable in producing satisfactory results. 3)--- since at least 1962 I have stained keris with laboratory quality arsenic trioxide; the results I am able to obtain with this are consistent, and in most cases I get a superior result to that which I am accustomed to seeing from professional blade stainers in Indonesia. One thing I did not say in my previous post is that I pay to have approximately 100 blades stained during each 12 month period; I normally have to return half of these blades to the tukang because they are unsatisfactory; of the half I return I normally have to return about 15 or 20 blades a second time; of those blades I usually have five or so blades to stain myself. I use laboratory quality arsenic trioxide on these failed blades, and my staining is always successful.

10th August 2009, 05:24 PM	#7
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	oke I understand sorry bud my engels is not verry good and thats te reson that I somtimes not understand whats say in the mail regards semar

11th August 2009, 04:25 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The biggest supplier of warangan in Solo is a "Shop With No Name" --- but everybody knows it as "Toko Vera", in Pasar Gede , one street west of the market. This shop wholesales to other shops in Solo and also sells retail. Unless somebody is buying outside of Solo and bringing the stuff into Solo themselves, they will be getting their supplies from Toko Vera. For a long, long time Toko Vera had drums of warangan that was very good stuff, and back a few years, it was not really all that expensive, however, the old stuff eventually ran out, and the only new stuff they could get was from India. As I have already remarked, this new stuff is not very reliable --- sometimes you can get an acceptable job from it, but other times you cannot --- and it is not cheap.

11th August 2009, 10:28 PM	#10
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	I have heard that now days in Jaw also Selenium is used. Because of shortage/price of arsenic. Anny one ever hear about it? If it works must be one of it oxides. Haven't figured it out witch one. Sugestions, please? And about the arsenic. Like Alan said, Di Arsenic tri Oxide (As2O3) works best, since it is the most agresive...lethal too. 100mg in your body will kill you, when taken oraly, dont know about in to blood stream.. probaly much lower. than you have Realgar, red to orange AsS, easly bought in mineral shops. The mor red the beter, is what people say.. i got a big chump here of maybe 300Gr red to orange colour.. it works. Just when you make the bath ready.. pulverise the realgar realy good, i use a farmacy mortar to grind. A big hammer does the job too . and piut the stuff in lime juice. I never put it on a filter.. let the fiber rot.. good for the acid value (PH). En my best tip.. let it stand for atleast a year... other wise it wont work properly... limjuce i white/yellowisch... i should become dark red to black sollution... you will know when you see it when its ready. The pinkisch mineral, i have seen it. But never used it my self.. And dont know if its a mixture of compounds, or a seperate mineral, cant find anny info about it. And finaly orpigment a other arsenic mineral yellow colour! As2S3. Never used it my self.. but hear diffent story's about it. The person that learned me.. never want to have it.. since it's not working...other people say otherwise.. reagrds Michel Ps sterling arsenic is metal arsenic, of non use for us! just looks pretty for mineral collectors. But it wont react. You can make trioxide of it.. but it dangerous.. so i wont tell you more about this

12th August 2009, 08:18 AM	#11
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Very interesting information indeed... I think I have to sell the piece of 'sterling arsenic' since I am not a mineral collector

12th August 2009, 04:22 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, as i read through this post i notice a bit of conflicting information here. I am not going to get into a this is "wrong" and this is "right" argument because firstly that's subjective (some people really get results in ways that others don't i suppose) and secondly it's just plain counter-productive. But i will give my own advice and reasoning for how i do it and why i don't follow some of this other advice. Lab grade arsenic tri-oxide does work best and it is the only method that will provide consistent results. This is because a gram of As2O3 is always the same exact strength each and every time, without any added impurities that might exist in all the various forms of realgar. The only disadvantage that i can see is that it is not always easy to obtain, but i managed to get a hold of some after only a few well placed phone calls, so don't give up if you want to try this. And yes, Michel, it would be in it's most potent form and therefore more deadly. My advice would be, don't stick it in you mouth and definitely don't shoot it in your veins and chances are good that you will be just fine. Actually, i would have far more fear about grinding it up in a mortar & pestle, or even worse smashing it with a hammer with pieces flying everywhere as this is more likely to make particles airborne and therefore breathable. If you are grinding this stuff up i would strongly recommend that you wear a surgical mask. Michel, if you really need to let your solution rest for an entire year before using i see this as another advantage to using As2O3. I usually let mine settle over night and it's good to go. And i am not sure that i can see how letting the pulp rot adds to your acid PH or if that is even necessary if it does. For those who what to use realgar i wish we could come to some agreement as to what color is best, because we are all over the map here. I have heard that purple is best, red is best, pink is best, orange is best and yellow is best. Well, only one can be best. If i were planning on using the mineral form i would be very confused right now.