Hudiedao

KuKulzA28 · 10th August 2009, 02:12 AM

I just realized something...

Many Wing Chun schools of martial arts emphasize that the Bat Jam Dao are taught only after everything else has been accomplished. While it seems a trend in Chinese martial arts to train the unarmed combat before the armed, fighting was often done with weapons, fist-fight when no weapons were present. So did most of the Hu-die-dao or baat-jam-dao users use them without expert training? It seems unlikely that the knowledge of their use should be held as such a secret by a few great masters and their toughest disciples, where river pirates and their seasonal sea-side kin should be the more common users of such blades.

Perhaps we should look to other martial arts that were more widespread? It seems Wing Chun was relatively unknown until more "recently". Hung Ga? They have a set called 子母雙刀... which I take as "male-female double knife". I have heard of Southern Mantis practitioners using bat jam dao, but I don't know enough about that style to comment.

Maybe the "river-pirates" only had rudimentary training in baat jam dao use? Surely they weren't looking to fight well-armed fighters, their goals was easy loot from easy prey.

Also, perhaps the hu-die-dao itself was more rare and specialized, but there were knives, daggers, and shortswords with the general look of a single-hand hu-die-dao... perhaps those were used like the big bowie knives of the American Southerners... part bushwhacker, part weapon...?

Gavin Nugent · 10th August 2009, 11:39 AM

Great run guys, I have been a little preoccupied of late to activley participate.

With regards to the martial arts question KuKulzA28 has asked above, just a small note from talks I have had with individuals who do train with these knives, the larger/longer ones pictured do not fit into the true Wing Chun form as some parts of the form would actually have you cut yourself with these longer swords, so in true essence of the arts as they are known today, some exampes do not seem to interface with history of old and their applications in days of old....I hope I makle sense it has been a long two days...

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 10th August 2009, 01:32 PM

That's intriguing...

we were many different schools of bat-jam-dao use? Perhaps the longer variants demanded a shortsword-like approach where-as the smaller ones demanded a double big-knife approach. I have been watching baat jam dao forms on YouTube, and I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters. And yet, there's examples of blades longer than that, but equally effective looking...

fearn · 10th August 2009, 04:56 PM

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Best,

F

KuKulzA28 · 10th August 2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Not meaning to deviate from the topic.... but perhaps that has most to do with two broad factors?

Those being:
1. Fewer and fewer traditional weapons being made and used
2. More and more Chinese martial arts becoming stagnant and falling into dis-use
^- (hence lacking the constant refinement of application and fighting skills)

I mean if few people are allowed to carry 14" blades, very few people make baat-jam-dao, the martial arts behind it haven't been applied and fought with for the past few generations, and it takes quite a bit of training to become wickedly proficient ...it seems inevitable that training will decrease, use of said weapons will decrease, and PROPER use and training of the said blades will diminish.... since there is no need for it. Forms will take on flashy and out-of-place movements, inappropriate weapons used, techniques rarely applied in real combat...

fearn · 10th August 2009, 06:12 PM

Hi Kukulz,

This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles.

What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs.

Best,

F

KuKulzA28 · 10th August 2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles.

True that. I think the great resurgence in Western martial arts, from navaja-fighting to sword-on-sword action, is admirable. Methodically combining fighting skills with old master-at-arms manuals and testing seems to be a great way to work out the techniques and fighting style of the old European battlefields and alleyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs.

My advice for that is to outline the main principles of baat-jam-dao use... Things to keep in mind are close-quarters, closing distance, both hands involved, simultaneous offense-defense, etc. After the main principles have been established, categorize between stabber, chopper, and both. I think interviewing several Hung Gar or Wing Chun practitioners who have been taught the baat jam dao form-set and techniques will help greatly. But be wary when you do because anyone can watch youtube videos and imitate the forms. Fighting skill, or even correctly performed sets, requires more than just that.

Studying this aspect of martial arts can be hard, breaking it down like this... but I wish you the best of luck. I am deeply in something else right now, or I too would be keen on figuring it out. The Hu-die-dao are very interesting Chinese weapons for sure!

Gavin Nugent · 10th August 2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

That's intriguing...

I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters.

My TaiChi master also spent decades perfecting the fighting application of the Southern Style Praying Mantis.
He explaned many years ago that the traditional fighting knives of his art were short double edged knives with a knuckle guard and a small spike to the base. They were gripped as daggers are with the blades facing down in the hand to facilitate that hooked wrist application found in the style.
I was given a demonstration with two pieces of dowl. I was the attacker and ever so fluently the application dealt to me would have severed viens and arteries in my forearms, arms and neck and each strike to me drew me deeper in to the application.
So effective is a weapon such as these with knuckle guards that one well trained in them could clear a room will ease.
From the description of the knives given and noting they were always pairs I can not help with this it maybe where the WWI trench knives originated?
I think the same can be said for the Hudiedao, very effective, what ever the length, different applications but the same effect...your disabled or dead.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 11th August 2009, 03:20 AM

The double-dagger fighting style of Chinese seems somewhat unique... using daggers with leaf-shaped blades, points directed downwards... however I believe the reason why it was not the most emphasized weapon was because spears and swords were just as common in street fights and have much more range and power than small daggers. Knives were back-up weapons, last-ditch weapons, or assassination weapons... I think the term is "secret" weapons.

Wasn't Fairbairn-Sykes dagger based off the thugs' daggers he saw in Shanghai?

Whether documented or not, the Imperialism in Asia led to a lot of cross-cultural exchange, perhaps the knuckle-dagger was inspired off Chinese daggers... maybe off Bichwa... or perhaps just an evolution of the knuckle-duster... just as the end-spikes and/or blades on the bagh nakh were developed to enhance it's versatility (and some bichwa had loops and claws attahced to do the same from the other end).

I feel as though there is a lot of Chinese weaponry upon which light can be shed... the close-quarters weapons and training of them seems much less known compared to the four main Chinese weapons of the battlefield (qiang/spear, gwun/staff, dao/saber, jian/sword)... which don't seem to include what was very prolific - crossbows, bows, and arquebus

none of which I've seen being used against me or another....

From a martial artist's stand-point, some of these more obscure Chinese close-quarters fighting weaponry would be most useful today, where the big weapons are often illegal to carry, making the handgun, knife, and club the more common weapons... The same can be said about Indian close-quarters weapons (of which less is known outside of India) like bichwa, bagh nakh, and katar which seemed to have been overshadowed (in terms of emphasis and glory) by khanda, tulwar, spear, and pata...

Thanks for continuing this discussion with me.
I can say for sure that I'm learning quite a bit here!

harimauhk · 11th August 2009, 11:47 AM

A friend of mine who practises Wing Chun here says Baat Jam Do should integrate seamlessly with the standard forms practiced empty handed and simply become an extension of the body, which would make shorter bladed weapons more maneuverable and natural IMO.

There are plenty of training baat jam do available here, and lots of sharp ones too, but the quality is pretty iffy which is why I'm looking elsewhere. The ones available on the local market go for about $75 US. I'm not looking to pay $850 US for quality ones though.

I might actually get the Cold Steel ones since they are good value and Cold Steel do make good quality knives.

KuKulzA28 · 11th August 2009, 03:24 PM

It's interesting that Wing Chun aims to have the close-quarters weapons flow seamlessly from empty hand technique... because many Filipino martial arts say that their knife-techniques should flow easily into empty-hand moves... Approaching similar goals from different training standpoints?

But again, to my previous question:

Did the "river-pirates" have formal training in their use?

I've given this some thought so I'll share them... If the 'river-pirates' can be divided up into two types, seasonal and full-time, then it opens up even more possibilities. If they are seasonal like their seaside kin, then it seems likely that when the harvest is done or the great catches of the season complete (migratory fish schools), there is enough down-time for piracy. Well, in that case, it is likely that those villagers had some sort of "village kung fu" for the purpose of defending their lands and boats. That, and the more determined individuals could perhaps train harder in martial arts during the productive season and then "ply their trade" during the piracy-season. Perhaps? The other side of it is a full-time criminal, who, with his band of pirates, hides out along the riverbanks and in small, near impenetrable places and comes out to raid and pillage. So what do pirates do in their down-time? Practice fighting? Go back to their "normal" lives? Become merchants or smugglers (as some 'pirates' were both)? Eat, drink, smoke, and make love with captured or paid women?

If the services of a martial artist were to be at the pirates' disposal, that could point us in a direction. I know in Taiwan, many martial arts teachers had (maybe still have) connections with local gangs. The same could/can be said about Chinatowns in the USA. However I don't know how far back this 'tradition' goes... and also if it was a widespread practice or just an individual choice.

It is known that locals and pirates coexisted in many cases - perhaps pirates from one hometown enjoedd protection there and support, and perhaps they helped "redistribute" (forcefully) the wealth in the region. According to Tonio Andrade's How Taiwan Became Chinese, the village that later became Tainan was originally a small hamlet made up of fishermen and pirates. If you were a pirate who was friendly with a local village, perhaps the shifu-criminal training relationship could then develop? Perhaps in a river-and-sea environment, these pirates were the combination of smuggler, merchant, pirate, and militia for the seaside and riverside villages of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwan - and not always seen in a bad way by the locals?

Chances are there were no hard-fast rules, and some were the equivalent of a village raiding party, some the militia, some just seasonal pirates with whom some villages had some friendliness, and some the rulers of the region...

Just some thoughts

mross · 17th November 2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

My TaiChi master also spent decades perfecting the fighting application of the Southern Style Praying Mantis.

snip...

Gav

Gavin, was reading through this and saw the reference to Southern Praying Mantis. I have not seen many people reference Southern Mantis, usually it's Northern Praying Mantis. I studied a Southern Praying Mantis system called Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu. My Sifu was a direct student of Master Gin Foon Mark, which ment we had the opportunity to study with the Master on many occasions. Is this the system your teacher studied?

Gavin Nugent · 17th November 2009, 09:21 PM

Hi,

The style you ask of is from memory Chow Gar Tong Long.

Thanks

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 17th August 2010, 03:59 AM

Out of curiosity, but not willing to start a new thread (and bumping a good one), are there Chinese names for the different Hu-dieh-dao / bat jaam do?

Needle tips, hatchet points, fat blades.... single blade, double blades... ?

Or are they all called Hu-dieh-dao?

10th August 2009, 02:12 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I just realized something... Many Wing Chun schools of martial arts emphasize that the Bat Jam Dao are taught only after everything else has been accomplished. While it seems a trend in Chinese martial arts to train the unarmed combat before the armed, fighting was often done with weapons, fist-fight when no weapons were present. So did most of the Hu-die-dao or baat-jam-dao users use them without expert training? It seems unlikely that the knowledge of their use should be held as such a secret by a few great masters and their toughest disciples, where river pirates and their seasonal sea-side kin should be the more common users of such blades. Perhaps we should look to other martial arts that were more widespread? It seems Wing Chun was relatively unknown until more "recently". Hung Ga? They have a set called 子母雙刀... which I take as "male-female double knife". I have heard of Southern Mantis practitioners using bat jam dao, but I don't know enough about that style to comment. Maybe the "river-pirates" only had rudimentary training in baat jam dao use? Surely they weren't looking to fight well-armed fighters, their goals was easy loot from easy prey. Also, perhaps the hu-die-dao itself was more rare and specialized, but there were knives, daggers, and shortswords with the general look of a single-hand hu-die-dao... perhaps those were used like the big bowie knives of the American Southerners... part bushwhacker, part weapon...? Last edited by KuKulzA28; 10th August 2009 at 03:26 AM.

10th August 2009, 11:39 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Does size really matter? Great run guys, I have been a little preoccupied of late to activley participate. With regards to the martial arts question KuKulzA28 has asked above, just a small note from talks I have had with individuals who do train with these knives, the larger/longer ones pictured do not fit into the true Wing Chun form as some parts of the form would actually have you cut yourself with these longer swords, so in true essence of the arts as they are known today, some exampes do not seem to interface with history of old and their applications in days of old....I hope I makle sense it has been a long two days... Gav

11th August 2009, 03:20 AM	#9
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	The double-dagger fighting style of Chinese seems somewhat unique... using daggers with leaf-shaped blades, points directed downwards... however I believe the reason why it was not the most emphasized weapon was because spears and swords were just as common in street fights and have much more range and power than small daggers. Knives were back-up weapons, last-ditch weapons, or assassination weapons... I think the term is "secret" weapons. Wasn't Fairbairn-Sykes dagger based off the thugs' daggers he saw in Shanghai? Whether documented or not, the Imperialism in Asia led to a lot of cross-cultural exchange, perhaps the knuckle-dagger was inspired off Chinese daggers... maybe off Bichwa... or perhaps just an evolution of the knuckle-duster... just as the end-spikes and/or blades on the bagh nakh were developed to enhance it's versatility (and some bichwa had loops and claws attahced to do the same from the other end). I feel as though there is a lot of Chinese weaponry upon which light can be shed... the close-quarters weapons and training of them seems much less known compared to the four main Chinese weapons of the battlefield (qiang/spear, gwun/staff, dao/saber, jian/sword)... which don't seem to include what was very prolific - crossbows, bows, and arquebus none of which I've seen being used against me or another.... From a martial artist's stand-point, some of these more obscure Chinese close-quarters fighting weaponry would be most useful today, where the big weapons are often illegal to carry, making the handgun, knife, and club the more common weapons... The same can be said about Indian close-quarters weapons (of which less is known outside of India) like bichwa, bagh nakh, and katar which seemed to have been overshadowed (in terms of emphasis and glory) by khanda, tulwar, spear, and pata... Thanks for continuing this discussion with me. I can say for sure that I'm learning quite a bit here!

11th August 2009, 03:24 PM	#11
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	It's interesting that Wing Chun aims to have the close-quarters weapons flow seamlessly from empty hand technique... because many Filipino martial arts say that their knife-techniques should flow easily into empty-hand moves... Approaching similar goals from different training standpoints? But again, to my previous question: Did the "river-pirates" have formal training in their use? I've given this some thought so I'll share them... If the 'river-pirates' can be divided up into two types, seasonal and full-time, then it opens up even more possibilities. If they are seasonal like their seaside kin, then it seems likely that when the harvest is done or the great catches of the season complete (migratory fish schools), there is enough down-time for piracy. Well, in that case, it is likely that those villagers had some sort of "village kung fu" for the purpose of defending their lands and boats. That, and the more determined individuals could perhaps train harder in martial arts during the productive season and then "ply their trade" during the piracy-season. Perhaps? The other side of it is a full-time criminal, who, with his band of pirates, hides out along the riverbanks and in small, near impenetrable places and comes out to raid and pillage. So what do pirates do in their down-time? Practice fighting? Go back to their "normal" lives? Become merchants or smugglers (as some 'pirates' were both)? Eat, drink, smoke, and make love with captured or paid women? If the services of a martial artist were to be at the pirates' disposal, that could point us in a direction. I know in Taiwan, many martial arts teachers had (maybe still have) connections with local gangs. The same could/can be said about Chinatowns in the USA. However I don't know how far back this 'tradition' goes... and also if it was a widespread practice or just an individual choice. It is known that locals and pirates coexisted in many cases - perhaps pirates from one hometown enjoedd protection there and support, and perhaps they helped "redistribute" (forcefully) the wealth in the region. According to Tonio Andrade's How Taiwan Became Chinese, the village that later became Tainan was originally a small hamlet made up of fishermen and pirates. If you were a pirate who was friendly with a local village, perhaps the shifu-criminal training relationship could then develop? Perhaps in a river-and-sea environment, these pirates were the combination of smuggler, merchant, pirate, and militia for the seaside and riverside villages of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwan - and not always seen in a bad way by the locals? Chances are there were no hard-fast rules, and some were the equivalent of a village raiding party, some the militia, some just seasonal pirates with whom some villages had some friendliness, and some the rulers of the region... Just some thoughts Last edited by KuKulzA28; 11th August 2009 at 03:41 PM.

17th November 2009, 09:21 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Your question. Hi, The style you ask of is from memory Chow Gar Tong Long. Thanks Gav

10th August 2009, 01:32 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	That's intriguing... we were many different schools of bat-jam-dao use? Perhaps the longer variants demanded a shortsword-like approach where-as the smaller ones demanded a double big-knife approach. I have been watching baat jam dao forms on YouTube, and I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters. And yet, there's examples of blades longer than that, but equally effective looking...

10th August 2009, 04:56 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient. Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both. It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form. Best, F

10th August 2009, 06:12 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Kukulz, This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles. What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs. Best, F

11th August 2009, 11:47 AM	#10
harimauhk Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 88	A friend of mine who practises Wing Chun here says Baat Jam Do should integrate seamlessly with the standard forms practiced empty handed and simply become an extension of the body, which would make shorter bladed weapons more maneuverable and natural IMO. There are plenty of training baat jam do available here, and lots of sharp ones too, but the quality is pretty iffy which is why I'm looking elsewhere. The ones available on the local market go for about $75 US. I'm not looking to pay $850 US for quality ones though. I might actually get the Cold Steel ones since they are good value and Cold Steel do make good quality knives.

17th August 2010, 03:59 AM	#14
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Out of curiosity, but not willing to start a new thread (and bumping a good one), are there Chinese names for the different Hu-dieh-dao / bat jaam do? Needle tips, hatchet points, fat blades.... single blade, double blades... ? Or are they all called Hu-dieh-dao?