Gunfighters and notches in grips

[potapych]

Perhaps these instances of 'record keeping' or tallies became a dramatic vehicle in the embellished tales of the dime novel writers and became part of the 'gunfighters myth'.

Hi Jim,

While the tally stick's origins reside somewhere back in the dimmer history of mankind, (the earliest surviving example about 18,000 years old), I think it helpful to consider it's uses when trying to analyze the concept of using tally marks on a gun.

Generally these may be broken down into either: an aide to memory when the amount is likely to change irregularly and/or over a protracted time, contains a large number, is being transmitted as a message or if the users are illiterate. The other possible use is the concept of "bragging rights".

In the first instance, the likeliest use would be the first example: an aide to memory when the amount is likely to change irregularly and/or over a protracted time and that use does not necessarily exclude the "bragging rights" concept.

In either case, we could agree that they would signify a momentous event, in the case of a mountain man or guide it could be the downing of a Grizzly (Ursus arctos horribilis) or even the number of round trips over the Overland Trail or number of attendances of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, etc.

To find such marks upon Plains Rifles, (not exactly combat weapons, unless of desperation), and have them signify "killings" of humans, causes me to imagine the following conversation: "Yep, this notch here, this was old Sam. You remember, that drunken fella that lived out behind the livery stable? Came at me blind drunk one afternoon with a pitchfork and wouldn't drop it so I had to do him in." Pretty far-fetched.

The other possibility, killings of Native Americans, is likewise somewhat put to rest by the fact that Joeseph Meeks had those two marks on his trigger guard yet he was married to the daughter of Nez Perce chief Kowesota.

Likewise, I think "another notch in his gun" was probably a figure of speech applied to gunfighters and it worked it's way into a myth.

any practice or function that would require actual marking for use, such as positioning of the trigger itself?

In so far as using those trigger guard notches for some other practical aspect than "tallying"; I am fairly conversant with firearms and there quite a few instances of tactile marks on both them and other accoutrements but in my experience they are usually protrusions, as those are much easier to detect than depressions and are of use so one can keep their eye on the target or locate a reference in the dark. As far as the trigger and guard goes; when one depends on a gun as a tool you develop a familiarity that becomes subconscious, so I cannot think of a practical use for any marks being located there.

Thank *you* for raising this subject, it is always an interesting exercise to try and put ourselves into the minds of our forefathers.

Best,

Ray

[pallas]

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetect...entinesday.pdf




here is a transcript of the episode of history detectives in question about the notched st valentines day massacre shotgun (i wasent able to find any video unfortunatly)

[Jim McDougall]

Eloquently worded and reasonably thought out observations Ray, and it really is great to examine these subtle features and elements associated with antique weapons to discover more on what our ancestors were truly like. It has always seemed to me that truth and reality are far more interesting than hyperbole and fantastically embellished tales.
I have been fascinated with history for as long as I can remember, and seeing the reality of the events brought into comprehensible dimension is a great way to better understand historical figures, and that they were really just like us.
I think one of the great illustrations of this was presented well in "The Alamo", and Davy Crockett being as amazed at the embellished tales about him in drama as the people thrilled with this mythical persona.

Thank you for the comments on possible practical reasons for notching on triggerguards, and it is good to see more accurate perspective on such probability. Good notes on the tally system also, apparantly the tally stick was a Native American practice used more in certain games used by young boys, but for them even games became applicable in honing skills that would become essential as grown warriors. It seems reasonable that these tally systems may have evolved from early civilization much in the manner you have described.

Barry, thank you for the comments and for adding those titles, I really look forward to hearing more on those obscure instances of notching, which indeed do seem more from later individuals adopting features from the well known dime novels.

Thanks again Pallas for the heads up on the St.Valentines Day massacre weapon, I'd sure like to find out more on the notches on that. It seems puzzling this 'guage' was kept secluded for so many years. There does seem to be every bit as much myth as with gunfighters in many cases, and while the 'mobsters' on the 20's and 30's were pretty ruthless, I would be surprised if this type bravado would have been applied by true mafiosa. The well known hoods from the midwest might have been more likely, and the arrogant bravado of figures such as Bonnie & Clyde more likely, though as far as known did not notch guns or keep tally.

All best regards,
Jim

[potapych]

I think one of the great illustrations of this was presented well in "The Alamo"

Thank you again Jim. I would highly recommend the treatment of these historical figures in Three Roads to the Alamo: The Lives and Fortunes of David Crockett, James Bowie, and William Barret Travis by William C. Davis, Harper-Collins 1998, if you have not read it already.

Best,

Ray

[Pukka Bundook]

Re. the notching of the trigger-guard of the very nice plains rifle, it could even have been done in later years, when some kid was playing 'cowboys and indians' or some such.
Having said that, I agree it probably represents some formidable adversary downed, like a grizzly.

Re. keeping score of human victims, This as we agree is normally rather abhorent, but two cases where this wasn't the case come to mind;
1, WW2 Polish fighter pilots in the RAF as an example....lost their country and maybe family to the Reich, and were there simply to kill Germans. It was a vendetta and that is all. Even when the weather was not fit for flying, they would Still fly if an enemy 'plane was heard overhead....even against orders.
Such a vendetta could concievably also occur in the old west, if someone lost his family to 'hostiles'
2, The other example of "keeping score" is actually from a friends private collection from New Gunea, But the score was kept by the Victims side.
In this case the tally is in the form of a large pole, carved with representations of the people killed by a rival tribe. the figures vary from tiny to very large, depending on social standing, and if a truce was to be called, a very quick 'leveling of score' often took place before the truce took effect!

What has this to do with the old west?..........I don't have a clue!!...apart from giving examples of where keeping score is more 'Kosha"

All best wishes
Richard.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

1, WW2 Polish fighter pilots in the RAF as an example....lost their country and maybe family to the Reich, and were there simply to kill Germans. It was a vendetta and that is all. Even when the weather was not fit for flying, they would Still fly if an enemy 'plane was heard overhead....even against orders.
Such a vendetta could concievably also occur in the old west, if someone lost his family to 'hostiles'

What has this to do with the old west?..........I don't have a clue!!...apart from giving examples of where keeping score is more 'Kosha"

All best wishes
Richard.

The movie Tombstone is all about vendetta; not to mention a fantastic cast of actors .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yDgkvWh3JQ

Eight thumbs up !!

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Richard, and now that you mention it, the very Sicilian practice of 'vendetta' was indeed something well known to the mafia, though it was more of score 'settling' than something recorded or shown with bravado. Thier activities were traditionally very covert, but well known to the most important figures.

Good point on RAF's Polish fighter pilots, from an extremely proud heritage and they, like many WWII pilots, certainly did display victory tallies. Perhaps since air combat was considered in certain cases very aligned with one on one combat it was somehow likened to chivalry and knightly contest. Much of this I am sure derived from this perspective somewhat romantically applied to the degree of chivalry associated with pilots in WWI and its seemingly distorted application, but while the texture changed, the counting of 'kills' still denominated flying aces. The noses of planes typically in WWII carried tallys of victories, bombing missions, along with modern versions of heraldry and 'nose art'.

Interesting on the tribal use of the tally in New Guinea, and just as with the WWII aviation applications, not directly applied, but certainly pertinant in broader understanding of the concept. Thank you for adding these notes!

Excellente Rico!!! The vendetta, as applied in the old west, bellisimo......and as well noted, Tombstone and the Earp vs. Clanton factions......Kilmer was brilliant as the famous gun toting dentist!!! Huckleberry THIS .....!!!

That puts us back into context, and in the concurrent thread on armor in the wild west.....did Wyatt use any kind of bulletproof appliance or clothing?
The jury's still out,

All the best,
Jim