Hand cannon ended on eBay

fernando · 28th July 2009, 02:15 PM

Hi Mark,
Eventually i don't share eBay problematics, i am not even registered

.
Well, you don't actually need to mount signallers; you just place them loose on a (reasonably) flat surface, and they stand upright by themselves. Having no projectile to be directed to a target, you convenientely fire the thing vertically, throwing the noise and flame up in the air. So they are either conical in profile, or (mostly) tend to have a widened (rimmed) base, to provide a certain stability. This is why often signallers (or noise makers) touch holes have a sort of lip or pan, where you deposit the priming gunpowder.
I hope i haven't spoken much nonsense, or Michael pops up and hits me

.

Fernando

.

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 03:11 PM

Hi Mark and Fernando,

First of all I guess that the seller thought that barrel was Austrian because unbelievably large numbers of these are still around in both Bavaria and Austria, where they are often employed as door stoppers in old houses. Forget about his tentative dating 'ca. 1750' though.

I attach the images for documentary purposes as they will not be around on Ebay for too long.

Secondly, Fernando is perfectly on the right track and made the final note by pointing out that the barrel was staged and the heavily swamped flat muzzle section would make an ideal land mark for the fore end of a stock.

Thirdly, before probably being around as a signaler and door stopper for two or three hundred years that barrel was definitely stocked and used for 'serious' purposes at the earlier stages of its working life which may have started as early as the 1440's!!! The small touch hole near the rear end and the large, flat muzzle head perfectly fit that Hussite Period.

Something very rarely found on early wrought iron barrels are the hammered longitudinal decorative grooves between the edges.

I include a scan of a similar barrel retaining its original stock and looped hook, now preserved at the Czech Military Museum in the Hradčany Castle Prague.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 28th July 2009, 04:05 PM

Oh Mark, what you have missed

.

Fernando

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 04:25 PM

Slowly, Fernando,

All my judging was done on the basis of some very poor 10 kB images.

I just noted what seems to be a series of punched quite modern A's on the side towards the muzzle. We must not forget that all the early forms were repeated in the Historismus period of the second half of the 19th century - and what if this is not wrought iron but 19th c. cast iron?

Always be careful, especially with poor images.
Michael

M ELEY · 30th July 2009, 03:57 AM

Ha ha! Right back at ya, Fernando!

As a novice in this area, I am learning much from both of you. I still wasn't sure it was a legitimate auction, even if the piece were from the proper period, so it is just as well that I passed it up. I'm still on the path to learning when it comes to these.

Michael, you mention that these were made in the 19th century to resemble the older pieces. Was this done as a sort of salute to the old (such as Victorian swords designed to look like the earlier 15th-16th c. pieces were) or as a total con (such as fake 19th c. Egyptian ashrubi handed out to infatuated collectors were)?? I'm interested to hear about this revival and how does one really differentiate between cast and wrought iron (other than obvious casting line and flaws)?

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 12:27 PM

Hi Mark,

Yes, the German Historismus was just the same movement in literature, arts and crafts as the English Victorian age and the époque Viollet-le-Duc in France. All these 19th century art forms took up the pure styles of earlier ages, copied them and mixed them up - the outcome were 'fantasy' trends like the Neo-Gothic and Neo-Renaissance periods.

And: yes, I think you mentioned the only ways to tell cast from wrought iron.

Best,
Michael

M ELEY · 30th July 2009, 02:10 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Michael. One final question on this piece. Do the series of punched letters automatically point to a more modern manufacture on these pieces, meaning earlier pieces will not be so marked? Or is it that the "A's" appear to be a more modern print of this type? Thanks,
Mark

28th July 2009, 02:15 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, Eventually i don't share eBay problematics, i am not even registered . Well, you don't actually need to mount signallers; you just place them loose on a (reasonably) flat surface, and they stand upright by themselves. Having no projectile to be directed to a target, you convenientely fire the thing vertically, throwing the noise and flame up in the air. So they are either conical in profile, or (mostly) tend to have a widened (rimmed) base, to provide a certain stability. This is why often signallers (or noise makers) touch holes have a sort of lip or pan, where you deposit the priming gunpowder. I hope i haven't spoken much nonsense, or Michael pops up and hits me . Fernando . Attached Images

28th July 2009, 03:11 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark and Fernando, First of all I guess that the seller thought that barrel was Austrian because unbelievably large numbers of these are still around in both Bavaria and Austria, where they are often employed as door stoppers in old houses. Forget about his tentative dating 'ca. 1750' though. I attach the images for documentary purposes as they will not be around on Ebay for too long. Secondly, Fernando is perfectly on the right track and made the final note by pointing out that the barrel was staged and the heavily swamped flat muzzle section would make an ideal land mark for the fore end of a stock. Thirdly, before probably being around as a signaler and door stopper for two or three hundred years that barrel was definitely stocked and used for 'serious' purposes at the earlier stages of its working life which may have started as early as the 1440's!!! The small touch hole near the rear end and the large, flat muzzle head perfectly fit that Hussite Period. Something very rarely found on early wrought iron barrels are the hammered longitudinal decorative grooves between the edges. I include a scan of a similar barrel retaining its original stock and looped hook, now preserved at the Czech Military Museum in the Hradčany Castle Prague. Best, Michael Attached Images

28th July 2009, 04:25 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Slowly, Fernando, All my judging was done on the basis of some very poor 10 kB images. I just noted what seems to be a series of punched quite modern A's on the side towards the muzzle. We must not forget that all the early forms were repeated in the Historismus period of the second half of the 19th century - and what if this is not wrought iron but 19th c. cast iron? Always be careful, especially with poor images. Michael Attached Images

30th July 2009, 03:57 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Ha ha! Right back at ya, Fernando! As a novice in this area, I am learning much from both of you. I still wasn't sure it was a legitimate auction, even if the piece were from the proper period, so it is just as well that I passed it up. I'm still on the path to learning when it comes to these. Michael, you mention that these were made in the 19th century to resemble the older pieces. Was this done as a sort of salute to the old (such as Victorian swords designed to look like the earlier 15th-16th c. pieces were) or as a total con (such as fake 19th c. Egyptian ashrubi handed out to infatuated collectors were)?? I'm interested to hear about this revival and how does one really differentiate between cast and wrought iron (other than obvious casting line and flaws)? Last edited by M ELEY; 30th July 2009 at 02:05 PM.

28th July 2009, 04:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh Mark, what you have missed . Fernando

30th July 2009, 12:27 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark, Yes, the German Historismus was just the same movement in literature, arts and crafts as the English Victorian age and the époque Viollet-le-Duc in France. All these 19th century art forms took up the pure styles of earlier ages, copied them and mixed them up - the outcome were 'fantasy' trends like the Neo-Gothic and Neo-Renaissance periods. And: yes, I think you mentioned the only ways to tell cast from wrought iron. Best, Michael

30th July 2009, 02:10 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thanks for the explanation, Michael. One final question on this piece. Do the series of punched letters automatically point to a more modern manufacture on these pieces, meaning earlier pieces will not be so marked? Or is it that the "A's" appear to be a more modern print of this type? Thanks, Mark