Hudiedao

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the detailed and very kind response Kukulz. Its always great when we get these kinds of well thought out discussions going and really get into understanding the often multifaceted dynamics of these subcultures and the fascinating disciplines of martial arts.

I agree with Mark in noting that many of these piratical in style groups definitely did often lead double lives, I think the same has applied to Cossacks, Vikings and probably very many other historically colorful groups.
A digression certainly worthy of note, and it would seem that martial artists employed as security guards or bodyguards in off times certainly might have engaged in other 'activities'. Thier possession of weapons not otherwise permitted to the average citizen because of thier profession would be easily explained.

It would seem that varying schools and disciplines of martial arts might have different characteristic secrets, and certainly many of these martial artists trained in the same style, which probably was another good reason for guan shi. It seems that in the American Wild West, gunfighters who were well established and essentially equally paired, tended to basically avoid each other, in particular any conflict. I would consider this form of 'detente' a kind of frontier guan shi, and perhaps preliminary contact was to prevent such situations.

All best regards,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks M ELEY and Jim!
I am actually a little surprised this thread has continued on in good discussion.
It's a good thing, all too often there's a discussion and then no one replies any more.

The parallels you guys draw between piracy, double-lives, and martial skills in China with other cultures is pretty interesting. This double-lives aspect was one that I was not aware of so I must thank you two for bringing it up and elaborating on it.

As for the connection between that and bodyguards, well it makes sense that while on the job, a Hau You Biao Ju guard would be upstanding and hold true to his mission (in order to get paid)... but it would be all too easy to allow bandits (with whom he has guanshi) to overwhelm the convoy, or perhaps he himself could do it as the travelers needed bodyguards in the first place... or perhaps bandits were also partially "seasonal"? I remember reading once that mercenaries in Europe often resorted to banditry when not in the service of a lord (during war). Perhaps the same can be said of some soldiers and martial artists. Not all of them settled back into farming or sought refuge in monasteries to quietly deal with the psychological shock of war... I'm sure some decided to go for easier targets while without a job. Gotta "feed the kids and pay the bills" somehow?

[harimauhk]

Hi Everyone I live in Hong Kong, where Wing Chun is everywhere. Interestingly, I've had a hard time locating a good quality pair of baat jam do (8 cut knives) here. Anyone have any suggestions on where to get a really good pair of usable ones? I know Cold Steel make some, but I'd rather get some from China (for less, ideally).

[fearn]

Convergence of threads?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10103

I was going to suggest commissioning a pair from a local smith, if you happen to be in an area where there are local smiths.

[KuKulzA28]

Their wares are good, but expensive. I'm not sure if I am allowed to link to a website.. they say no linking to live auction but I've linked to an antique vendor and got "strike 2"... so I will PM you harimauhk

[Gavin Nugent]

Good people,

I took these images last week for a Russian journalist. I thought some readers would appreciate seeing the images within these pages for reference too.

Regards

Gav

[josh stout]

I have only seen a few examples in person, but I have the feeling that the shorter fat blade late Qing (post 1850) hudiedao were rarely if ever pattern welded, and have somewhat basic handles with the carving if any, done just to improve the grip using a soft wood. These seem to have been copied in style by the later Republican pieces and modern examples.

The narrow blade hudiedao all are pattern welded, often with finely carved hardwood handles. Large single hudiedao are seen in period artwork of late Qing tigermen, and other regular soldiers, though they were never a regulation weapon.

I had a long discussion with a martial artist by the name of Martin Watts who studies Fujian white crane kung-fu. He had traveled to Wing Tsun village to learn the style only to find them practicing white crane. This makes sense in that southern white crane was supposedly the origin of wing tsun. So Martin wanted to learn a double dao style and asked the local blacksmith to make him a set. The blacksmith came back with the narrow blade style of hudiedao.

My thought is that either kind of blade could be used by martial artists, but that the two styles represented class differences.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

My observations based on these pieces at hand and that of photographic imagery I have from the 1860s would be;

The longer ones either broad or narrow were more commonly found in the mid 1800s and exhibited various styles of pattern welding as you note. The wood mostly appears to be rosewood a good strong reliable timber that looks stunning when carved in any manner.

The old rusty shorter ones presented, if ever restored, will I am sure also show a pattern welded blade, these things are massively heavy for their size and very thick, quite consistant with the longer versions in manufacturing features.

The other short pair are on loan, are very light but equally as capable, they show a very clear inserted edge. Also after many attempts at bringing a pattern out are now starting to show a couple of good long pattern lines and I am pretty sure more will pop over time. These to me date in the first quarter of the 20th century.

I'd love to see the artwork with the tiger men and the single large dao.
I have a short heavy early dao pictured in the inital postings that I have seen as referenced as being used with a shield. I'll put a better image of it up for show soon.

I do not know if these styles are seperated by class based on peasant militaria images I have but with the quality of the hilt carvings one would think it is certainly plausible.

I'd be interested to see the longer ones demonstrated in the arts but to date I have not seen such applications.

Thanks for stopping by.

Gav

[KuKulzA28]

I just realized something...

Many Wing Chun schools of martial arts emphasize that the Bat Jam Dao are taught only after everything else has been accomplished. While it seems a trend in Chinese martial arts to train the unarmed combat before the armed, fighting was often done with weapons, fist-fight when no weapons were present. So did most of the Hu-die-dao or baat-jam-dao users use them without expert training? It seems unlikely that the knowledge of their use should be held as such a secret by a few great masters and their toughest disciples, where river pirates and their seasonal sea-side kin should be the more common users of such blades.

Perhaps we should look to other martial arts that were more widespread? It seems Wing Chun was relatively unknown until more "recently". Hung Ga? They have a set called 子母雙刀... which I take as "male-female double knife". I have heard of Southern Mantis practitioners using bat jam dao, but I don't know enough about that style to comment.

Maybe the "river-pirates" only had rudimentary training in baat jam dao use? Surely they weren't looking to fight well-armed fighters, their goals was easy loot from easy prey.

Also, perhaps the hu-die-dao itself was more rare and specialized, but there were knives, daggers, and shortswords with the general look of a single-hand hu-die-dao... perhaps those were used like the big bowie knives of the American Southerners... part bushwhacker, part weapon...?

[Gavin Nugent]

Great run guys, I have been a little preoccupied of late to activley participate.

With regards to the martial arts question KuKulzA28 has asked above, just a small note from talks I have had with individuals who do train with these knives, the larger/longer ones pictured do not fit into the true Wing Chun form as some parts of the form would actually have you cut yourself with these longer swords, so in true essence of the arts as they are known today, some exampes do not seem to interface with history of old and their applications in days of old....I hope I makle sense it has been a long two days...

Gav

[KuKulzA28]

That's intriguing...

we were many different schools of bat-jam-dao use? Perhaps the longer variants demanded a shortsword-like approach where-as the smaller ones demanded a double big-knife approach. I have been watching baat jam dao forms on YouTube, and I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters. And yet, there's examples of blades longer than that, but equally effective looking...

[fearn]

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Not meaning to deviate from the topic.... but perhaps that has most to do with two broad factors?

Those being:
1. Fewer and fewer traditional weapons being made and used
2. More and more Chinese martial arts becoming stagnant and falling into dis-use
^- (hence lacking the constant refinement of application and fighting skills)


I mean if few people are allowed to carry 14" blades, very few people make baat-jam-dao, the martial arts behind it haven't been applied and fought with for the past few generations, and it takes quite a bit of training to become wickedly proficient ...it seems inevitable that training will decrease, use of said weapons will decrease, and PROPER use and training of the said blades will diminish.... since there is no need for it. Forms will take on flashy and out-of-place movements, inappropriate weapons used, techniques rarely applied in real combat...

[fearn]

Hi Kukulz,

This is true to a very large extent. Some martial artists distinguish between "dead" and "live" lineages on this basis. I don't think it's a new phenomenon either, nor do I think it's a one-way street. A great example of this is the western martial arts movement, which is researching Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods by getting replica weapons and armor, researching the old books, and experimenting until they get something that works. While I won't argue that the current reconstructionists are as good as the knights of old, I think that, to some large degree, fighting is fighting, and if you've learned how to fight in any style, it's possible to expand that knowledge to cover other styles.

What I'm looking at in this thread is how to figure out the different forms of bat-jam-dao, and more importantly, if you're planning on using well-made ones for a particular form, how to get the blades you need. That's a slightly different question, and I think it's best accomplished by looking at your needs, and then finding a blade with the shape to accomplish those needs.

Best,

F

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

That's intriguing...

I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters.

My TaiChi master also spent decades perfecting the fighting application of the Southern Style Praying Mantis.
He explaned many years ago that the traditional fighting knives of his art were short double edged knives with a knuckle guard and a small spike to the base. They were gripped as daggers are with the blades facing down in the hand to facilitate that hooked wrist application found in the style.
I was given a demonstration with two pieces of dowl. I was the attacker and ever so fluently the application dealt to me would have severed viens and arteries in my forearms, arms and neck and each strike to me drew me deeper in to the application.
So effective is a weapon such as these with knuckle guards that one well trained in them could clear a room will ease.
From the description of the knives given and noting they were always pairs I can not help with this it maybe where the WWI trench knives originated?
I think the same can be said for the Hudiedao, very effective, what ever the length, different applications but the same effect...your disabled or dead.


Gav

[KuKulzA28]

The double-dagger fighting style of Chinese seems somewhat unique... using daggers with leaf-shaped blades, points directed downwards... however I believe the reason why it was not the most emphasized weapon was because spears and swords were just as common in street fights and have much more range and power than small daggers. Knives were back-up weapons, last-ditch weapons, or assassination weapons... I think the term is "secret" weapons.

Wasn't Fairbairn-Sykes dagger based off the thugs' daggers he saw in Shanghai?

Whether documented or not, the Imperialism in Asia led to a lot of cross-cultural exchange, perhaps the knuckle-dagger was inspired off Chinese daggers... maybe off Bichwa... or perhaps just an evolution of the knuckle-duster... just as the end-spikes and/or blades on the bagh nakh were developed to enhance it's versatility (and some bichwa had loops and claws attahced to do the same from the other end).

I feel as though there is a lot of Chinese weaponry upon which light can be shed... the close-quarters weapons and training of them seems much less known compared to the four main Chinese weapons of the battlefield (qiang/spear, gwun/staff, dao/saber, jian/sword)... which don't seem to include what was very prolific - crossbows, bows, and arquebus none of which I've seen being used against me or another....

From a martial artist's stand-point, some of these more obscure Chinese close-quarters fighting weaponry would be most useful today, where the big weapons are often illegal to carry, making the handgun, knife, and club the more common weapons... The same can be said about Indian close-quarters weapons (of which less is known outside of India) like bichwa, bagh nakh, and katar which seemed to have been overshadowed (in terms of emphasis and glory) by khanda, tulwar, spear, and pata...

Thanks for continuing this discussion with me.
I can say for sure that I'm learning quite a bit here!

[harimauhk]

A friend of mine who practises Wing Chun here says Baat Jam Do should integrate seamlessly with the standard forms practiced empty handed and simply become an extension of the body, which would make shorter bladed weapons more maneuverable and natural IMO.

There are plenty of training baat jam do available here, and lots of sharp ones too, but the quality is pretty iffy which is why I'm looking elsewhere. The ones available on the local market go for about $75 US. I'm not looking to pay $850 US for quality ones though. I might actually get the Cold Steel ones since they are good value and Cold Steel do make good quality knives.

[mross]

Originally Posted by freebooter

My TaiChi master also spent decades perfecting the fighting application of the Southern Style Praying Mantis.

snip...

Gav

Gavin, was reading through this and saw the reference to Southern Praying Mantis. I have not seen many people reference Southern Mantis, usually it's Northern Praying Mantis. I studied a Southern Praying Mantis system called Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu. My Sifu was a direct student of Master Gin Foon Mark, which ment we had the opportunity to study with the Master on many occasions. Is this the system your teacher studied?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi,

The style you ask of is from memory Chow Gar Tong Long.

Thanks

Gav