Hudiedao

[KuKulzA28]

I'm away for 4 days and look at all this! Nice stuff, cool pictures!

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, the farmer's martial arts were (and probably are) quite diverse in China, and most of them aren't practiced outside the country. As someone who practiced one pointed out, there's not a lot of difference between living in a temple and learning a martial art, and living in an isolated farming village and learning a martial art. Both are spartan conditions with lots of manual labor, and the relative lack of distractions (as would be found in a big city) means that the sifu can take up large blocks of time for training his better students, there being little else to do. He could also control their diet and other aspects of their lives to favor martial development.

Don't forget that Chen-style tai chi was a village martial art. The Chen village made its money growing and shipping medicinal herbs, and even before they developed tai chi, they had their own martial art for protecting their shipments from bandits.

As for weapons, we've all seen those village swords that Josh has. Beyond that, the village arts often use farm equipment (hoes, rakes, etc), along with staffs of varying lengths, and more conventional spears, jian, and dao.

Anyway, this is getting off topic, but it's worth remembering that in the last ~500 years before the Cultural Revolution, the state didn't do a lot for rural security. The peasants weren't all defenseless during that time, although the best martial artists were generally found in the big cities, where they could make more money.

Best,

F

I agree. I am not saying that that villagers did not have martial arts nor that weren't diverse. I was saying that martial arts was not highly regarded in Chinese values. Obviously the values aren't concrete and many seem hypocritical or over idealistic compared to the more mundane and ubiquitous Chinese values of loving money and face, and fearing death. Also the values are often coming from the mouths of high society, those who can afford to not be tough, who can afford to not serve in the village militia, who can afford to debate about Confucian and Tao values while living in relative luxury. To have to exert yourself physically was, in some ways, considered lower-class. These are just generalizations, there were wealthy martial artists.

Chen Tai Ji was a "village martial art", and Tai Ji (Supreme Ultimate Boxing) was a very very effective one. You've got to have something if you're going name your art something that cocky! The stand-up grappling and close-quarters fighting exhibited in Tai Ji is amazing. Even more amazing is how diluted and commercialized Tai Ji has become, turning it into a peaceful, slow-meditation style of exercise for those in all walks of life - maybe helpful for many folks, but definitely not a supreme and ultimate form of fighting. The Yang family, at least in certain generation was known for really stream-lining and improving the martial arts...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In "Chinese Martial Arts Training" , Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo, 2005, pp.137-141, there is interesting discussion on these private security companies from about 1800-1900, who employed martial artists.

Apparantly c.1800, one of the early and most prominant firms was named 'Hau You Biao Ju' (meeting friends guard service) and gained notoriety as it was owned by Li Lian Ying who was interestingly head eunuch of Empress Dowager.
As this service developed, it seems every province had one or more private security companies for personal, residence or convoy protection. It is noted that the 'hu yuan' was a bodyguard for residential service, while the 'zou biao' guarded convoys or goods.
Apparantly in the case of convoys etc. the triangular guidon or pennant of the security company was displayed to warn predators off, or at least ostensibly so.
It seems that much as often was the case of with Masonry, the bonds of brotherhood transcend business or political allegiances, and martial artists of like groups in many cases knew each other and trained together. In many instances the guards would contact potential adversaries in advance to establish guanxi, or diplomatic relations. It would seem these arrangements may have taken interesting turns at times, and perhaps there were instances of intrigue?

In any case, one of the martial arts weapons often used by these martial artists were these types of butterfly knives. In cases where ‘open’ weapons were used (spears, halberds, sabers) the triangular banners were displayed. On more covert matters, ‘secret’ weapons such as batons, chain whips and these types of knives were used, with no banner shown.

According to Thom Richardson in “China and Central Asia” ( paper in “Swords and Hilt Weapons”, ed. M.Coe, 1989, p.182), these type of paired weapons either swords or knives, seem to have come into use at the end of the 17th century. It is noted that most of the collected examples of these were made around the first half on the 19th century.
As noted in earlier post, I have seen examples of these with security firm markings from about 1860’s. These butterfly or paired weapons, along with swords with short, heavy blades were favored in the southern regions in crowded city streets.

I have that "Chinese Training Manual" book, a very good read and eye-opening for sure. I'm glad you expanded on my comment on Security Companies and your own discovery of the Security Co. mark on the blade. Very nice.
It really makes me wonder... how come so many different martial arts styles have similar weapon forms? And the answer seems to have a couple of answers. Weapons are meant to work a certain way, thus techniques cannot differ by much. But, one can always train it, record techniques (forms), and use it better... so why the striking similarity (often same form and name)? Why is the 5th Son or 5th Brother staff so popular? Not only as a weapon, but why is the same form found in many styles? Perhaps it is because of the guan-shi between martial arts societies that helped them share techniques and weaponry. But then you ask, wasn't fighting between schools and styles common? Why would they share? Well it would be hard to learn techniques while they are being used on you. It would also be hard to learn a form from a hostile person since people don't fight choreographed, they fight with the techniques displayed in the forms. Thus it seems unlikely that the forms were learned on the battlefield or deathmatch but from sharing or "stealing" of forms and techniques.

So I thank you for bringin' it up Jim, I hadn't thought of it myself...

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I am away from my books, but if I had to postulate on why the Chinese pirates were seen as such villians, I would point to several established points.
#1. These pirates preyed upon all shipping, even among those of thier own people. As such, they were seen as a direct challege to the government itself. #2. When the piracy of Europeans was in its heyday, there were an estimated 2000 scalawags in the Carribean. When the pirates were especially active in the South China Sea (as they still are today!) in the early 19th century, they had huge numbers pirates and junks to swarm down on their targets. Actually, from most of my readings, they don't seem as particularly more awful to their victems than any other pirate at the time. If they were unfortunate enough to be captured, it would cost them their heads (perhaps not as gruesome as a dangling hanging like the Western pirates). If I might conjecture yet one more possibility of why they created such derision-
When the "pirate king" was eventually killed in battle, his WIFE took over the pirate hordes and ruled with an iron fist. In China at the time, women were seen as quiet, subserviant types, not the leaders of whole navies! This must have shook the very foundation of the establishment at the time. Yes, I know the Empress Dowager would soon follow on the heels of this powerful woman, but she was far more subtle in her movements, hiding behind a child king.

Very fascinating. I would agree that Chinese pirates tended to swarm their targets and not fight it out ship vs. ship, but then again, one would be stupid to ignore the strategic advantage conferred by superior numbers.

Would it be safe to assume that the pirate-life appealed to many Chinese as an escape from traditional life? As a pirate, one did not have to till the land. As a pirate, one's place was dictated by personal ability and guile, not necessarily class. As a pirate, a martial artist could potentially profit a lot more than his thug, soldier, and bodyguard brethren. As a pirate, you had the heroes of the Marsh to look up to (and other wuxia characters), swashbuckling anti-government freedom fighters...

Still, it is amazing the resources and power that the pirate-rulers commanded. While we need to be careful not to over-estimate them, they were powerful in their own waters for sure.

[M ELEY]

As always, I'm away from my books at work and can't be exact with the following statement, but as I remember, many Chinese pirates were fascinating in that they were "seasonal". That is to say, during the good fishing season, many (but not all) of these pirates lead perfectly ordinary and typical lives. It was during the off-season that these men (and women) turned to a life of crime, putting up their nets and donning their hudiedao.
For that matter, this isn't unheard of in other pirate traditions. The timber workers of the Compache region of Central America would cut trees during the season and in the off-season (sorry, can't recall if this is the monsoon season, winter season, or ??), they would go a-pirating in the Spanish Main. This tradition was very well-founded. On a more sinister note, the thugis of India lead normal lives, but snuck off during the night to assassinate and muder for money. Most didn't even let their families know of their secret lives, but I digress.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the detailed and very kind response Kukulz. Its always great when we get these kinds of well thought out discussions going and really get into understanding the often multifaceted dynamics of these subcultures and the fascinating disciplines of martial arts.

I agree with Mark in noting that many of these piratical in style groups definitely did often lead double lives, I think the same has applied to Cossacks, Vikings and probably very many other historically colorful groups.
A digression certainly worthy of note, and it would seem that martial artists employed as security guards or bodyguards in off times certainly might have engaged in other 'activities'. Thier possession of weapons not otherwise permitted to the average citizen because of thier profession would be easily explained.

It would seem that varying schools and disciplines of martial arts might have different characteristic secrets, and certainly many of these martial artists trained in the same style, which probably was another good reason for guan shi. It seems that in the American Wild West, gunfighters who were well established and essentially equally paired, tended to basically avoid each other, in particular any conflict. I would consider this form of 'detente' a kind of frontier guan shi, and perhaps preliminary contact was to prevent such situations.

All best regards,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks M ELEY and Jim!
I am actually a little surprised this thread has continued on in good discussion.
It's a good thing, all too often there's a discussion and then no one replies any more.

The parallels you guys draw between piracy, double-lives, and martial skills in China with other cultures is pretty interesting. This double-lives aspect was one that I was not aware of so I must thank you two for bringing it up and elaborating on it.

As for the connection between that and bodyguards, well it makes sense that while on the job, a Hau You Biao Ju guard would be upstanding and hold true to his mission (in order to get paid)... but it would be all too easy to allow bandits (with whom he has guanshi) to overwhelm the convoy, or perhaps he himself could do it as the travelers needed bodyguards in the first place... or perhaps bandits were also partially "seasonal"? I remember reading once that mercenaries in Europe often resorted to banditry when not in the service of a lord (during war). Perhaps the same can be said of some soldiers and martial artists. Not all of them settled back into farming or sought refuge in monasteries to quietly deal with the psychological shock of war... I'm sure some decided to go for easier targets while without a job. Gotta "feed the kids and pay the bills" somehow?

[harimauhk]

Hi Everyone I live in Hong Kong, where Wing Chun is everywhere. Interestingly, I've had a hard time locating a good quality pair of baat jam do (8 cut knives) here. Anyone have any suggestions on where to get a really good pair of usable ones? I know Cold Steel make some, but I'd rather get some from China (for less, ideally).

[fearn]

Convergence of threads?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10103

I was going to suggest commissioning a pair from a local smith, if you happen to be in an area where there are local smiths.

[KuKulzA28]

Their wares are good, but expensive. I'm not sure if I am allowed to link to a website.. they say no linking to live auction but I've linked to an antique vendor and got "strike 2"... so I will PM you harimauhk

[Gavin Nugent]

Good people,

I took these images last week for a Russian journalist. I thought some readers would appreciate seeing the images within these pages for reference too.

Regards

Gav

[josh stout]

I have only seen a few examples in person, but I have the feeling that the shorter fat blade late Qing (post 1850) hudiedao were rarely if ever pattern welded, and have somewhat basic handles with the carving if any, done just to improve the grip using a soft wood. These seem to have been copied in style by the later Republican pieces and modern examples.

The narrow blade hudiedao all are pattern welded, often with finely carved hardwood handles. Large single hudiedao are seen in period artwork of late Qing tigermen, and other regular soldiers, though they were never a regulation weapon.

I had a long discussion with a martial artist by the name of Martin Watts who studies Fujian white crane kung-fu. He had traveled to Wing Tsun village to learn the style only to find them practicing white crane. This makes sense in that southern white crane was supposedly the origin of wing tsun. So Martin wanted to learn a double dao style and asked the local blacksmith to make him a set. The blacksmith came back with the narrow blade style of hudiedao.

My thought is that either kind of blade could be used by martial artists, but that the two styles represented class differences.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

My observations based on these pieces at hand and that of photographic imagery I have from the 1860s would be;

The longer ones either broad or narrow were more commonly found in the mid 1800s and exhibited various styles of pattern welding as you note. The wood mostly appears to be rosewood a good strong reliable timber that looks stunning when carved in any manner.

The old rusty shorter ones presented, if ever restored, will I am sure also show a pattern welded blade, these things are massively heavy for their size and very thick, quite consistant with the longer versions in manufacturing features.

The other short pair are on loan, are very light but equally as capable, they show a very clear inserted edge. Also after many attempts at bringing a pattern out are now starting to show a couple of good long pattern lines and I am pretty sure more will pop over time. These to me date in the first quarter of the 20th century.

I'd love to see the artwork with the tiger men and the single large dao.
I have a short heavy early dao pictured in the inital postings that I have seen as referenced as being used with a shield. I'll put a better image of it up for show soon.

I do not know if these styles are seperated by class based on peasant militaria images I have but with the quality of the hilt carvings one would think it is certainly plausible.

I'd be interested to see the longer ones demonstrated in the arts but to date I have not seen such applications.

Thanks for stopping by.

Gav

[KuKulzA28]

I just realized something...

Many Wing Chun schools of martial arts emphasize that the Bat Jam Dao are taught only after everything else has been accomplished. While it seems a trend in Chinese martial arts to train the unarmed combat before the armed, fighting was often done with weapons, fist-fight when no weapons were present. So did most of the Hu-die-dao or baat-jam-dao users use them without expert training? It seems unlikely that the knowledge of their use should be held as such a secret by a few great masters and their toughest disciples, where river pirates and their seasonal sea-side kin should be the more common users of such blades.

Perhaps we should look to other martial arts that were more widespread? It seems Wing Chun was relatively unknown until more "recently". Hung Ga? They have a set called 子母雙刀... which I take as "male-female double knife". I have heard of Southern Mantis practitioners using bat jam dao, but I don't know enough about that style to comment.

Maybe the "river-pirates" only had rudimentary training in baat jam dao use? Surely they weren't looking to fight well-armed fighters, their goals was easy loot from easy prey.

Also, perhaps the hu-die-dao itself was more rare and specialized, but there were knives, daggers, and shortswords with the general look of a single-hand hu-die-dao... perhaps those were used like the big bowie knives of the American Southerners... part bushwhacker, part weapon...?

[Gavin Nugent]

Great run guys, I have been a little preoccupied of late to activley participate.

With regards to the martial arts question KuKulzA28 has asked above, just a small note from talks I have had with individuals who do train with these knives, the larger/longer ones pictured do not fit into the true Wing Chun form as some parts of the form would actually have you cut yourself with these longer swords, so in true essence of the arts as they are known today, some exampes do not seem to interface with history of old and their applications in days of old....I hope I makle sense it has been a long two days...

Gav

[KuKulzA28]

That's intriguing...

we were many different schools of bat-jam-dao use? Perhaps the longer variants demanded a shortsword-like approach where-as the smaller ones demanded a double big-knife approach. I have been watching baat jam dao forms on YouTube, and I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters. And yet, there's examples of blades longer than that, but equally effective looking...

[fearn]

Actually, I think one of the big issues with a bat-jam-dao is whether you can use the tip or not. For example, wing chun has some thrusts, but the commercially available butterfly swords are built so that the tip isn't in line with the hilt, making a thrust less efficient.

Given what Gav has shown (and what I've seen elswhere) there's a whole family of these blades, and some are more optimized for chopping, some for stabbing, some for both.

It's important to remember that, especially in later generations of a kung fu school, the moves being taught might not be optimal for the blades being used. The thrusts I mentioned above are but one of a great many examples. In other words, don't assume that the form of a school is perfectly aligned with the blades they currently use to demonstrate that form.

Best,

F

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

That's intriguing...

I think the Wing Chun and Hung Gar blades must have been short to allow for spinning the blades for momentum within very close-quarters.

My TaiChi master also spent decades perfecting the fighting application of the Southern Style Praying Mantis.
He explaned many years ago that the traditional fighting knives of his art were short double edged knives with a knuckle guard and a small spike to the base. They were gripped as daggers are with the blades facing down in the hand to facilitate that hooked wrist application found in the style.
I was given a demonstration with two pieces of dowl. I was the attacker and ever so fluently the application dealt to me would have severed viens and arteries in my forearms, arms and neck and each strike to me drew me deeper in to the application.
So effective is a weapon such as these with knuckle guards that one well trained in them could clear a room will ease.
From the description of the knives given and noting they were always pairs I can not help with this it maybe where the WWI trench knives originated?
I think the same can be said for the Hudiedao, very effective, what ever the length, different applications but the same effect...your disabled or dead.


Gav