Hudiedao

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding notes Kukulz, and thank you for the cited references, beautifully done. I like the observations on the scholars jian, which are well placed in perspective, and really help in understanding more of thier context. It is interesting when considered alongside the studies of fencing and advanced education of nobility and gentry in Europe etc. in more recent times.

Very good points and queries on the 'river pirates' and you are quite right about thier contact as far as the Philippines. I am not sure if the same perspective might be applied to the Chinese pirates as the more familiar European pirates of the 'Golden Age' of late 17th into early 18th century as far as motivation or skills in weaponry. I think there were of course varying degrees of application as previously noted, as piracy is a very broad topic which has been well known in most cultures from early times. Whether Vikings, Cossacks, Barbary Pirates, Privateers, Ladrones or various Asian 'river pirates', all had broadly interpreted lifestyles and probably a wide spectrum of participants.

I certainly dont believe that most pirates in the sense most familiar, were especially well trained in fighting or use of weapons. Most accounts of pirates I have known seem to suggest that pirates in most cases used all manner of ploys and intimidation in subduing thier prey, and would avoid targets that were excessively formidable. Naturally, there were groups or individuals who did become understandably seasoned and ruthless if they survived long enough to ply the 'trade' for a time.

With this being the case, I would imagine that such weapons as the hu die shuang dao were probably seen occasionally among river pirates, much as all manner of weaponry would have been. While piracy is often romanticized and associated with heroic or patriotic tales, in truth it is largely a social phenomenon which obviously entreated a wide assortment of miscreants and misfits from all walks of life. Certainly the criminal element prevailed, as well as those who had somehow come from failed positions even from upper classes.
With these wide degrees of pedigree, I would say equally wide degree of skills, education, character and ideals, or lack of, would have existed together, but the ultimate goal would have been largely the same...survival.

Nathaniel, thank you for adding the additional terms. While trying to learn more on these topics, it really helps to build a sort of glossary, as the terms often get confusing.

All very best regards,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

I see. Perhaps the pirate-kings were no different from the bandit-kings on land (in essence), both drew the desperate, whether good fighters or not, and both needed open lawless territory to maneuver in. Thus the frontiers of the Empire and the Sea were great places. However, I would think that bandits rarely got away with amassing as large numbers as the Chinese pirates did...
It would probably be impossible to know, but did some pirate kings have a state-style rule over their crew and subjects? Or was it just everyone for themselves, and the king was just the most ruthless and influential of them all, feared enough to be obeyed? Or was it a system of patron/client, the pirates would obey the pirate-king's orders so long as the king provided for them well-enough and demonstrated peerless tactics/courage/benevolence/legitimacy/ruthlessness etc. - a buccaneer's version of the mandate of heaven I suppose...?

[Jim McDougall]

It seems most of what we know of these pirate entities comes from romanticized and sensationalized literature or narratives, and I honestly cannot claim to having read much of this. However, what I have presumed is based on notes, research and discussions over the years, and simply considering the kinds of embellishments that typically become emplaced in tales of these figures.
I think it would take focused and in depth research on specific regions and pirate groups to really understand what sort of hierarchy or organization they might have used, there always had to be a command figure, and that person would need to maintain respect most of all. Whether accomplished through fear, benevolence or any means, leadership was essential. I have always been surprised at the very sensibly represented codes of the European pirates, which were remarkably considered actual democracies of a form.
It seems quite a paradox to have such standards applied to basically an outlaw enterprise, but gives an example of how many of these groups probably organized.

Getting back to the orginal topic, the 'butterfly knives', much as the diverse strata of members of the pirate groups, were likely present in incidental cases.

All best regards,
Jim