Killing elephants with swords

[tom hyle]

The methodology and courage described are nothing short of amazing. I am surprised by the reaction, not because of the sympathy for the elephants, which seems typical of this forum's members, but the lack of doubt; the story certainly seems believeable to me, but that's what I expected; someone to question its veracity. I did think someone might twinge at the mention of blood on the Moro warrior's sword; people on this forum occasionally do; that and worries about stirring up nationalism is why I left the smiley face off of "maybe he did get his slice on"......A thing about elephants is that they are one of the peoples beside whom humans lived from the beginning, and for a long time throughout their range; now they are almost gone, like many before them....I think some of us are getting lonely. Hard to say there are too many elephants; humans?......
I think the idea that kaskara and takouba descend from crusader swords is a collectors'/curators' tale that grows out of an ignorance of medieval Arab swords, which were also straight and double edged, the curved sword being relatively modern in its dominance in both Europe and the Middle-East, and seeming to come with Tartaric invaders (Turks, Magyars, etc.); the penetration in Europe seems to have started early, but persisted at a low level for a long time (and mixed with the native sax); in Arabia, I don't know.
The kaskara has a Turkish/Persian style guard. Many Sudanic/Sahel people consider themselves Arabs, and are descended from ancient Arab immigrants, though to N Americans they would appear to be "black Africans", while others are of the related (Afrasian) Berber people, or related to them. So, occam's razor and all that good stuff; not much reason to turn to Europe for an explanation, (though if anything, a certain "Western" union between African and Celtic culture in the pre-Christian days may make sense in some African design) when Arabia makes more sense; I don't even know of any concrete reason to assume the distribution of the form to have been southward, rather than Northward. Some forms are fairly simple and seemingly universal, and the cruciform sword or dagger is seen in probably most human cultures. On the other hand, as Europe entered the "modern" era, and everyewhere else came within the European sphere of (often first) trade, then domination, many obsolete European sword blades were reforged and melted down, but many others were exported to less industrial regions; such is the bladestock for many Indian firangi and kattars, for instance, and many kaskaras and takoubas do have European blades; some perhaps from such trade, and others made up through at least the late 19th (and one would imagine at least a bit later) in Europe specifically for export to Africa, in the shapes desireable there (as well as sabre blades of the style made for the European market, which the Africans dressed and modified in a number of ways).
It is my impression that this version of takouba and kaskara ancestry is now more accepted by the official experts, though I rarely pay them much mind, so don't know, and is no longer considered revision of more than a folktale.
In India there was once a sword (a big kattar) made for a king. Its name was "Tongue of Death" It was proved in the tale by killing an elephant with a single thrust into the brain. This is a famous story; I've seen kattars with such name written on them, after the nature of, I suppose, "Andrea ferria"..........

[nechesh]

Gee, Radu, while i would say that these links certainly could stir things up a bit, i can't see what they could possibly have to do with edged weapons or the subject at hand. Thanks for the wonderful imagery. I sure it will stick with me for a while. You might want to put a children's advisory warning on those.
As for the subject at hand, i can see a bit of both sides of the coin here. I abhor the hunting of these great beasts, especially since it's only purpose seems to be for the luxury trade of ivory and not to sustain the survival of these people ( the trophy hunts in Radu's links are even more abhorent). Still this is a part of the ethnographic history of the weapons in question and i don't see it's discussion as out of place on this forum. The weapons we collect were certainly made to kill (though some might argue in the case of the Javanese keris ) and i think it is important to have an understanding of that. Though i am basically a vegetarian (eggs and fish an exception) i appreciate those who hunt for their meat because they have a true understanding of what it is they are eating and the sacrifices involved, unlike those who buy their perpared little squares of protein wrapped in styrofoam and plastic at the corner supermarket. As collectors of these blades i think it important that we understand the bloody history of these weapons.
That being said, i don't think it is necessarily unfair to find the slaughter of the elephant to feed the ivory trade disgraceful in any age. Just this morning i heard a similar argument to GAC's in reference to a man who was defending his ancestor's ownership of slaves with the excuse that it was the time and everybody was doing it. But it was greed that drove the slave trade just as it does the ivory trade and mankind has been far enough advanced morally to understand the rights and wrongs of these issues for many centuries. It is all to easy to excuse a peoples actions by the times they lived in.
Ultimately, i think the vast majority of us collect these weapons based on their artistic integrity, and not on their ablity or history of taking lives. Unfortunately, much of the "art" seems to have disappeared in the making of weapons. I remember being at the Baltimore gun show years back and marvelling at finely crafted Turkish rifles with beautiful and complex inlays of mother-of-pearl and wonderfully engraved gun barrels and thinking that if only we made missles with this quality of craft no one would ever dare to launch them.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Maybe I was a little harsh however it was nothing but the reality of it, one must accept it or at least stay aware of consequences. We glorify weapons and romanticise and bravery in battle or hunting but on the other hand we cannot handle ... of course I understand the Forum is not the place for gory exhibitionism nor that I enjoy it ...
Just a reality check once in a while ...

[Spunjer]

on the same subject, here's another excerpt:

Kris and Crescent

Written by Peter G. Gowing

When reports of savage skirmishing between American soldiers and Filipino warriors drifted back to the United States intermittently during the 15 years prior to World War I, the American public would have been hard put to explain what the fighting was all about. All most people knew was that the United States had just acquired the islands from Spain, that a captain named Pershing was doing a fine job and that a hand gun called the Colt .45 had been developed to bring down certain fanatical warriors who were terrifying the troops with wild suicide charges. They also knew, vaguely, that the warriors were called "Moros."

Considering that those same Moros today constitute a body of Muslims more numerous than the populations of either Kuwait or Libya and that they occupy an area larger than Denmark, this vague memory scarcely did them justice. Yet there has always been something unforgettable about the fierce courage of the Moros. In frail praus they ranged over the southern seas in quest of plunder and wrote a savage page in history as pirates and raiders. Armed with little more than the kris—a long, serpentine dagger that is as much symbol as weapon—the Moros went out to win tribal honors by killing wild elephants.

has anyone heard of this???

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Just a reality check once in a while ...

I agree. You've got mail.

[Ian]

Spunjer:

To the best of my knowledge there have been no wild elephants in the Philippines in the last 400+ years of recorded European settlement in the country, and I don't know if there ever were any elephants in the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao.

Ian.

[Mark]

I have re-opened this thread not due to the criticisms that attended its closing, but to try and make the point by actions, as words seem to be missing the target.

It has been said many times that the thread was not closed because of the topic being discussed, nor the nature of the discussion. It was locked because the links to very graphic photos of mutilated elephants and to advertisements for big game hunting were posted, with the expressed purpose of "stirring things up," which it did, as can be seen by posts that remain here expressing pretty unanimously that the pictures were unecessary and added nothing to the discussion. Basically, the thread was rapidly moving (a) off-topic, and (b) towards a debate that was looking more emotional than reasoned, so it was frozen before things got ugly. In the words of Andrew:

The elephant thread went "wrong" when links to some photos were posted. Since the topic had the potential to overheat quickly, and since the posting of those links needed to be discussed by staff, I closed the thread.

As so many have pointed out, discussion of weapons cannot really take place in a vacuum. The use and effect of those weapons is certainly an appropriate subject of discussion. Provided such discussion is undertaken appropriately.

I'm not able to articulate it any better than that, I'm afraid. Gratuitious gore, incivility, trolling, and "stirring things up" will be handled as it comes.

Best,
Andrew

The links and associated post have already been removed; all the remaining posts remained even while the thread was locked (something that seems to have escaped those alleging censorship); the topic continued in a very productive and civilized manner in a later thread, which was never closed.

Now, so long as people do not take this action as an invitation to begin a new debate about forum posting policy, and keep any discussion here focused on the subject and not blatently offensive, we hopefully can leave this silly hoopla behind and continue learning and feeding our "jones" for swordes (and knives).

Now here is a dha. It has nothing to do with kaskaras or elephants, or censorship, but it is nice to look at.

[Spunjer]

Spunjer:

To the best of my knowledge there have been no wild elephants in the Philippines in the last 400+ years of recorded European settlement in the country, and I don't know if there ever were any elephants in the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao.

Ian.

ian,
i've pm you about maybe an expedition to the golden triangle area. upon further reading, i found out that wild elephants exist/existed in borneo, making it much more accessible to suluanons.