Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 01:02 AM

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

Jeff D · 16th July 2009, 01:46 AM

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

Jim McDougall · 16th July 2009, 02:22 AM

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 02:53 AM

My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England)

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

Cheers

Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

Lee · 16th July 2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged. The one caveat, of course, would be links with a commercial purpose, so 'visit my web store to see one of these for sale' would not receive a favorable moderator's response. Links to dealer's 'sold' pages to illustrate examples remain permissible unless a member has been specifically advised otherwise by a member of the moderators team.

fernando · 16th July 2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

... I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

... There is no prohibition here about linking to relevant discussions elsewhere, indeed, if they enhance the discussion such links are encouraged....

What a nice sequence; worthy of note

.

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 16th July 2009, 03:18 PM

Very nicely said Gentlemen!!! and I am glad we all agree that our endeavors in learning together, sharing information and ideas far surpasses the pettiness too often seen in well known instances that are better left behind us.

Glen, please link away!!! and I really look forward to the detailed and well thought out material that you always share in your writing. I totally agree on trying to recapture material that has already been written in depth....its tough to try to recount accurately and with the same impact usually.

Onward!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 16th July 2009, 03:01 AM

Hi Jim,

"Figure 1.A
Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle)

One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail."

Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer

.

Hi Glen,
Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed.

All the Best
Jeff

16th July 2009, 01:02 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Hi Jim, Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt. Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland. As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords. Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread. Cheers Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic Attached Images

16th July 2009, 03:01 AM	#9
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, "Figure 1.A Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle) One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail." Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer . Hi Glen, Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

16th July 2009, 01:46 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58. Hi Glen, Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament). All the Best jeff

16th July 2009, 02:22 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff and Glen, You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads. On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc. Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods. On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!! On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic. Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'. I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here. Thank you guys!! All the best, Jim

16th July 2009, 02:53 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081 As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England) If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic. Cheers Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

16th July 2009, 03:18 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very nicely said Gentlemen!!! and I am glad we all agree that our endeavors in learning together, sharing information and ideas far surpasses the pettiness too often seen in well known instances that are better left behind us. Glen, please link away!!! and I really look forward to the detailed and well thought out material that you always share in your writing. I totally agree on trying to recapture material that has already been written in depth....its tough to try to recount accurately and with the same impact usually. Onward!!!! All the best, Jim