Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jeff D · 15th July 2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one

All the best.
Jeff

Hotspur · 15th July 2009, 03:31 AM

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2009, 05:16 PM

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad

! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 01:02 AM

Hi Jim,

Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt.

Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland.

As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords.

Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic

Jeff D · 16th July 2009, 01:46 AM

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim,

Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58.

Hi Glen,

Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament).

All the Best
jeff

Well, yes, of course Mowbray does picture an example by Thurkle (it is on the front of his cloth bound) but I cannot associate some of the other examples I have shown this thread and elsewhere, simply because one blade is clearly labeled as Wooley and others simply not too Thurkle.

Cheers

Hotspur; I had recently acquired the Mowbray(the younger)/Flayderman Medicus title and really do need to spend quality time with it.

Jim McDougall · 16th July 2009, 02:22 AM

Hi Jeff and Glen,
You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads.
On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc.

Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods.

On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!!

On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic.

Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'.

I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here.
Thank you guys!!

All the best,
Jim

Hotspur · 16th July 2009, 02:53 AM

My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081

As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England)

If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic.

Cheers

Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).

Jeff D · 16th July 2009, 03:01 AM

Hi Jim,

"Figure 1.A
Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle)

One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail."

Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer

.

Hi Glen,
Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed.

All the Best
Jeff

15th July 2009, 03:31 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Hi Jeff, That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier. There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another. Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century. Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time) Cheers Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one Attached Images

15th July 2009, 05:16 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it! Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions. It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ? It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics. I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th. I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always. I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society. Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note. The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature. I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon. Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though ! As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application. Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th July 2009 at 05:43 PM.

16th July 2009, 01:02 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Hi Jim, Here is a picture of a sword labeled as Swedish and about the 1780s. The odd paart about my coming across it today is that it wasb't the sword Iw as looking for, which may simply mean there are more associated 18th century clearly masonic decorated sword blades than we may think. It wa sa few years ago, so my mind may be misremembering as well but I'm pretty sure it was one as elaborate but with blue and gilt. Regarding hearts on arms and armour, I have my own perspective on the talisman's of the Catholic church at large and could easily redraw it once again in yet another hearts thread. Heart, chalice, cup, tarot (you may see where I am going in terms and classes of sociology, wands, spades, coins). Again, I look at that from a much stronger continental influence than simly the pierced baskets used in both England and Scotland. As to sword fixture and knots, it is one more egg in the big basket as so few are depicted in both art and research in descriptions. The salty parrot beak I pictured can have no other purpose I can think of for such a simple artifice of that hilt. It certainly has no aesthetic value I can see. To see knots quite wound around the guard bow does not seem unusual in pictures of later swords. Ah well, off to look for the Swedish sword some more, unless it really was the one pictured. From the long SFI smallsword thread. Cheers Hotspur; there are a lot of swords in that long thread but this one did come up as Swedish and Masonic Attached Images

16th July 2009, 03:01 AM	#9
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, "Figure 1.A Naval Officers' Sword ca. 1795 (Francis Thurkle) One of the more commonly encountered Thurkle hiltings featuring a counter guard containing a pierced diamond- see detail." Thats about it, Glen is correct he doesn't state that it is exclusive to Thurkle, just that it is common to them. Good eye on the square and compass motif. Actually look at the reflection off the ferrule, looks even closer . Hi Glen, Please go ahead and link, I can only think of one forum where this isn't allowed. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

16th July 2009, 01:46 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Found it!!! Andrew Mowbray The American eagle-Pommel Sword 1988 Pg 58. Hi Glen, Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament). All the Best jeff

16th July 2009, 02:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff and Glen, You guys are truly masters of esoterica!!! and thank you so much Jeff for finding the reference! Another book I wish I had ! Andrew Mowbray was brilliant as a researcher and had a true passion for eagleheads. On Thurkle, what was said about the diamond motif? etc. Glen, thank you for the great pics of this fascinating colichmarde, and excellent example of what appears Masonic motif of the period. It would be interesting to discover more about what particular symbolism might have been favored by the lodges in various countries, as well as associated brotherhoods. On the heart, it does seem there were discussions a while ago where this occurred in certain cases on Eastern European blade motif, I think it was Polish. I'll have to look for those notes.....we're really digging into some dusty old material here!!! On another note, on this blade, the five point star seems to have the letter 'G' in the center. While it is often debated on the meaning, one suggestion is that is has to do with geometry, as it often appears in the center of the crossed compass and square of Masonic symbolism, geometry of course the mainstay of the craft. In discussions again of some time ago, the use of the star in Masonic symbolism was one topic. Returning to the 'Thurkle diamond', in looking into the diamond shape as perhaps seen in symbolism, the compass and square form this shape which encloses the 'G'. I know that these forays into occult and esoteric symbolism often are met with considerable skepticism and disregard by many, but I think that investigating the symbolism in weapons is a fascinating aspect not typically undertaken, so I really appreciate the participation here. Thank you guys!! All the best, Jim

16th July 2009, 02:53 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	My thoughts on hearts mentioned elsewhere in 2005. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5081 As the Holy Roman Empire lasted well into exporting themes from the continent, I do tend to look at a lot of stylistic issues as western expansion (ie England) If it is improper for me to link other references on other sites where I participate, let me know. My deepest and heartfelt sorrows is that all forums are at times often less than symbiotic. Cheers Hotspur; Myself, being post stroke and still having some thought process issue, it is simply easier to offer what I have already posted (published).