Kebo Lajer with Kul buntet - opinions?

David · 14th July 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonno

Can anyone tell me the meaning of the small gold dots in lower part?

Best regards,
John

Welcome to the forum John. I think Sajen is probably correct. The gold dots probably do not have any meaning on their own, they are probably just residual of gold work that was once on the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2009, 11:52 PM

Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:-

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

David · 15th July 2009, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.

This occurred to me, but i couldn't think how else it might appear in this form. And you are certainly right that this dhapur is rarely gets kinatah. Can't say i have ever seen it.

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2009, 04:42 AM

I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it.

The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

Jonno · 15th July 2009, 03:30 PM

Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum.

The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it.

Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers.

Hi Maisey,

1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold?

I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil.

2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality)

3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade?

No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik.

4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ?

No, on one side.

5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade?

I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between.
Looks like thin foil

6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?)

The Keris has came directly from Indonesia

7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago?

Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source.

I also think something has dragged across it....
Best regards,
John

A. G. Maisey · 16th July 2009, 12:17 AM

Good to see you here John, and thank you for providing a response to my questions.

This keris has been in a western society for 30 years; during that time anything could have been done to it.We probably should stop speculation on these assumed gold specks. In my opinion their presence on this blade have absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely associated with the cultural roots of this keris.

We have some unidentified yellow specks that appear to be residue from abrasion.

That's all we have. Nothing more.

Forget the specks and focus on the keris, which is as nice an example of this type as I have seen.

John, you may have noticed that my registered name is A.G.Maisey.

The "A.G." are initials of my given names.

You may address me as "Alan", but you may not address me as "Maisey", unless we attended high school together, or we both belong to the same club. If you are uncomfortable with "Alan", you may use "Mr. Maisey".

Jonno · 16th July 2009, 11:08 AM

Hello Alan,

Thank you for your response
An other member has already corrected me. Because I'm a new member I wasn't able to edit my last post on the forum. But they have upgraded my status.

Best regards,
John

14th July 2009, 11:52 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Erik, I have a few questions about these gold specks:- 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? The yellowish specks that I can see do not appear to be in a place or pattern that would indicate residual kinatah work, additionally the blade form (dhapur) is one that is very, very seldom found with kinatah work.If a conscientious examination were to be carried out some plausible explanation for these specks may be able to be proposed, but in the absence of such examination all we can do is guess.

15th July 2009, 04:42 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I spent a long time looking at that area with the specks, David, and it seems to me as if something has dragged across it. The first thing that must be established is if it is gold or not.

15th July 2009, 03:30 PM	#5
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Hi, My name is John, I am new on this forum. The keris in question is mine. Erik has put it on this forum to collect some information about it. Thanking you all for your time and inforanswers. Hi Maisey, 1) have they been tested and confirmed as being gold? I didn’t test it, but it looks like gold foil. 2) if they have been tested, what carat gold are they? ( this is important as it could give an indication of originality) 3) is there any gold in the lower parts of the blade surface, or is it confined to high points on the blade? No, only the lower parts. Not higher than gandik. 4) is there gold on both sides of the blade ? No, on one side. 5) has an examination under high magnification been carried out to attempt to determine how these gold specks are fixed to the blade? I can see the gold on the blade, not in or between. Looks like thin foil 6) do we have any provenance? (by this I mean has this keris come directly from Indonesia, or has it been in a western culture for some period of time?) The Keris has came directly from Indonesia 7) the blade stain appears to be quite fresh; do we know where this was done, and how long ago? Atleast more then 30 years ago, that’s what they told me. It is a fine item and it came from a reliable source. I also think something has dragged across it.... Best regards, John

16th July 2009, 12:17 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Good to see you here John, and thank you for providing a response to my questions. This keris has been in a western society for 30 years; during that time anything could have been done to it.We probably should stop speculation on these assumed gold specks. In my opinion their presence on this blade have absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely associated with the cultural roots of this keris. We have some unidentified yellow specks that appear to be residue from abrasion. That's all we have. Nothing more. Forget the specks and focus on the keris, which is as nice an example of this type as I have seen. John, you may have noticed that my registered name is A.G.Maisey. The "A.G." are initials of my given names. You may address me as "Alan", but you may not address me as "Maisey", unless we attended high school together, or we both belong to the same club. If you are uncomfortable with "Alan", you may use "Mr. Maisey".

16th July 2009, 11:08 AM	#7
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Hello Alan, Thank you for your response An other member has already corrected me. Because I'm a new member I wasn't able to edit my last post on the forum. But they have upgraded my status. Best regards, John