Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Rick]

Please don't link to any items currently for sale .

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you so much for the kind words, and especially for the confidence in the observations and thoughts I often express. That really means a lot .

Glen, thank you for your open minded approach in examining and reopening thoughts open for consideration in this topic.

I have often discovered that the subject of symbolism in motif and decoration on swords is typically met with considerable difference of opinion and responses from indifference and skepticism to even outright hostility in thankfully few cases.

It has been many years since I first considered the possibility of Masonic symbolism in these swords, and as I recall, even in communication with Brian Robson, he discounted the idea, claiming that the five ball motif was likely an aesthetic selection.
In my research I found the 1963 article by W.E.May in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, and while he did not express the Masonic idea, he was intrigued by the motif, and noted that he hoped further research would ensue.
In years to follow, I began studying markings on blades, and discovered the talismanic and cabbalistic motif profoundly occurring on British and European military blades. It seems that the 18th century was highly charged with secret societies, fraternal groups, and occultism, which had carried the concept of superstition and talismanic properties imbued in weapons from the earlier 'Passau Art'.
Among the societies originating in the early 18th century was of course the Freemasons, which had membership not only in England and Scotland, but in France. This brotherhood had ties much deeper than politics or loyalty to a crown, and was nearly quintessant in its ancient symbolism and fealty.
In a time wrought with occultism, elitism in fashion and culture, and the search for cultural superiority, the gentry often sought romanticized gallantry in military appontment of rank.

As I have mentioned, the spadroon was introduced as a corresponding military counterpart to the gentlemans smallsword, and neoclassic fashion was clearly seen in the stylish hilt and classic style pommel. My mention of the use of the term 'spadroon' was simply to illustrate the Italian fencing term which might have alluded to the familiarity of these officers of gentry origins and such training. That they would have quite likely been members of Masonic lodges is also most likely, and the thought of the numeric five representing such allusion seems to me quite plausible.

I recently watched a documentary concerning Masonic symbolism and the possibilities associated with the symbolism found on the dollar bill. While certainly much of the material is quite contestible, there are a number of elements that are not only plausible, but compelling. Prior to the American Revolution, the forefathers of the country were not only British subjects, but many, including George Washington and more, were Masons. The French, who were profoundly allied in the Revolution, were also in many cases, of Masonic lodges.
It is interesting that this numeric ball motif found its way across the English Channel to France, as a model for a sword pattern, when France seldom was a follower in adopting weapon forms. It is further interesting that the pattern seems to have followed to the United States, in a time when strife between the U.S. and England remained in place despite strained diplomatic ties.
Perhaps more the result of fraternal solidarity ?

This is pretty much my presentation of my case, and whether or not it can be proven, I still think it is worthy of consideration. I very much believe that Masonic symbolism has long existed subtly in military tradition, and this, and other instances deserve further research.

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

What I am unclear on entirely but don't ascribe to is that beaded hilts (of any number) originated in England. What I see in terms of browsing and cataloging these, along with the more recent fascination of seven vs five, or three vs one; it just doesn't add up to me as Masonic influence. the grandaddy five ball examples of those that I log looks more in line with continental origin. Albeit, someone else I have prodded mentions it as probably later than my impressions of it but does agree it is not English in its evolution.

Mark of Old Swords has an immense amount of data for Birmingham and had offered it on dvd but I have failed to follow up with him due to other things going on. if the evolution and connotation of the meaning evolved in England, comparisons of cutlers on either side would perhaps settle my thought of European influences and the evolution of beading.

A couple of more attachments here from some old auction pages referencing that naval counterguard on a french anglais pattern.

I did watch the very same documentary regarding Washington, the stars and the government's icons. Remarkably though is that Washington became a mason during the French and Indian War (from my understanding of his biographies) and that it was not a case of nepotism (of which some has been cause to approach me about for personal references).

My late younger brother (rip) was quite enthralled with the math, symbology, history of Free Masonry from the 80s to 1994 and desputed my truth to his last breath because he was determined I was in the order (which I'm not). Oldest son to oldest son stuff. I'm also going to attach a symbol for the second son and South Carolina

Cheers

Hotspur; all intresting stuff, that is true

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

[Jeff D]

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

Well, I would somewhat disagree some of the information as published being a beginning of royalty buying into guild/craft membership. Somewhat ancillary was an earlier link I offered regarding trade, guilds and sponsorship. George III was also the underwriter to the Odd Fellows and granted their charter. An affair that goes right back to the more open/publicly known network of the Freemasons.

King George’s father was a Freemason. Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales (1707-1751), was heir to the throne of his father King George II. Frederick Lewis was of paramount importance because he was the first Royal Freemason. Once royalty entered the Craft, then everybody wanted to join, and the fraternity was assured of success. Frederick Lewis led a hedonistic lifestyle and died before his father, thrusting his son George III onto the thrones of England and Hanover in 1760 at the age of 20.

At about the time that Friday the 13th came about, England continued to support the Templars through transfers to the Hospitalliers. Few were charged with anything so much as a modern description of a misdemeanor. EIII became the treasurer of all the efforts previoulsy administered by the Templars. In a sense, Free Masonry and the Templars kind of relate an unbroken chain of networking and guild (craft) that parallels later advents such as the Odd Fellows. Edward the third bought his ticket into the linen armourers guild, his sons likewise. The Order Of The Garter was another continuation for fraternal purposes.

Then later in the 14th century being led to London against the same family during the march of Wat Tyler (sic). Was that last simply a guild struggle? I dunno.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am now probably just rambling about my readings from different stories of history