Armoury's Mark?

Hotspur · 11th July 2009, 04:37 PM

Hi guys,

It is somewhat fallacy to to assume very similar sabres to have even been destined for the American market. The general type were widely used by other countries and the Solingen manufacturers prodigous.

As to the forward bent guard, a quite common modification. Whether to hang on something like a belt or for a better thumb rest is unclear in my seeing this. Not unlike so many American nco spadroons with the guard bent on the wear side of carring. Field expedient for what ever reason and not a manufacturing process of those sabres (albeit the spadroons were often made one side drooped or formed for better uniform carry).

Regarding sharpened back edges, a good many versions of these have a grind meant for exactly that, a sharpened bac edge. Clauberg sabers of this type especially noted.

Regarding first trial swords for the American inspection, one dealer references them them as John Thillmann’s “Civil War Cavalry and Artillery Sabers” discusses this rare variation on page 370. This is identical to that example, with the tall pommel cap, blade marking of a diamond with “O” cartouche over 39 over S&K on the blade back, and matching diamond/O over 39 on the face of the guard. Scabbard drag marked crown/D and S&K

Could the cartouche also be found on S&K sabres be fairly widely distributed in Europe before those trials? I don't have Solingen information regarding all associated markings but the other marks mentioned on this sword read to me more like a Prussian or other acceptance and military number/letter markings for a regiment or battalion. Is this an S&K marked sword? I just don't know. I would be looking at European (even South America) markings such as these describe.

I did recently acquire an 1840 type that is entirely devoid of markings on the blade and made in the German fashion of cord over wood, then wire over the leather. This type was/is really the last period of wants for my collecting and researches. Unmarked swords of the period were mroe often thought to be exported from Solingen for whatever purpose an importer/retailer might make use of. Still, a good number of more simply marked with a manufacturer mark and also carry an American retailer's marks. My example has just a small mark on the castings bow and pommel. Still, no real provenance I know of to place it in American use but perhaps more likely than for European proof and unit markings.

That is not to say lots of marked swords did not land on American soils for whatever reason but the markings indicated are likely not sure provenance and history of their use. A good many will state that "of course, it must be Confederate and blockade runner's wares".

The wristbreaker information from Jim is pretty well founded considering the 1833 sabres preceding it and general little training. Another thought regarding that is that the dragoons who then got the fist true contract swords were not as nice as the trial swords had been. What is always a bit of amusement to me is that the French mle1822 and all the Solingen made swords were widely used throughout Europe until (and past) the 20th century and the one complaint we hear from those troops was a rather dismal outlook on the mle1822 swords for serious work.

Cheers

Hotspur; Compare how dainty and lively compared to an mle1854 dragon

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2009, 05:16 PM

Thank you for the additional information Manolo. I think what Glen is saying is very well placed, these may indeed have been European acceptance marks in the cartouche, and the various letters and numerics likely representing the usual initials and inventory.It seems issuance stamps are of course found separate from these type stamps. It is highly worn, so hard to say.

Interesting about the Confederate general's sabre. I should have been more precise concerning comments on Civil War swords. The officers in the Confederate cavalry were indeed colorful , often flamboyant and I have often heard them described as 'the last cavaliers'. I believe they did effectively use sabres, however most of the literature on Civil War events does not reflect much on the use of swords.
I do know that Custer had a sword with a hilt similar to the M1840, but mounted with a huge, straight Spanish broadsword blade, said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat during the Civil War. I actually found this sword in the museum at the Little Big Horn, after we had been trying to find it, and believing it was in the Smithsonian. There are discussions on this sword here in the archives, reflecting the research done.

Another sword in similar case was shown here by Matt Branch, it was a Confederate officers sword, with again Spanish broadsword blade marked PDL, (P.D.Luneschloss, Solingen) and inscribed Mexican eagle. This one taken in combat in Tennessee from a Confederate officer.

It seems that these swords carried blades from the swords of Mexican officers taken by U.S. officers who later became officers in the Confederate cavalry. I have seen references with Confederate advirtisements in period newspapers requesting swords or edged weapons to be given for the cause.
It is well known that the Isaac& Co. pattern 1853 British cavalry sabres were sent to the Confederacy.

While the medical records, as noted, show few sword cuts, it does not presume those reports to be comprehensive enough to reflect injuries inflicted or for that matter, deaths, from the clear minority of Confederate officers, or from the sabres used by the outstanding Confederate cavalry units, especially those from Virginia (see Virginia Manufactory thread).

Glen is absolutely right, sabres with these style hilts, again based on the French models with brass hilts and so called Phrygian cap pommels, were used by a number of European countries (yes, including Denmark

)
While the preponderance of demand in the U.S. during the Civil War brought a huge volume of swords here, one cannot discount the fact that other countries had demand as well, in varying degree. Solingen, the marketing machine for edged weapons, was as always 'working overtime' !

Glen, thank you for the kind note, and for showing the M1840 and French mle 1854........I've never seen them side by side...what contrast!!
Interesting.......the mle 1854 has a straight blade......I think these were still considered sabres? Another notch in the terminology syndrome.

All best regards,
Jim

11th July 2009, 04:37 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 526	Hi guys, It is somewhat fallacy to to assume very similar sabres to have even been destined for the American market. The general type were widely used by other countries and the Solingen manufacturers prodigous. As to the forward bent guard, a quite common modification. Whether to hang on something like a belt or for a better thumb rest is unclear in my seeing this. Not unlike so many American nco spadroons with the guard bent on the wear side of carring. Field expedient for what ever reason and not a manufacturing process of those sabres (albeit the spadroons were often made one side drooped or formed for better uniform carry). Regarding sharpened back edges, a good many versions of these have a grind meant for exactly that, a sharpened bac edge. Clauberg sabers of this type especially noted. Regarding first trial swords for the American inspection, one dealer references them them as John Thillmann’s “Civil War Cavalry and Artillery Sabers” discusses this rare variation on page 370. This is identical to that example, with the tall pommel cap, blade marking of a diamond with “O” cartouche over 39 over S&K on the blade back, and matching diamond/O over 39 on the face of the guard. Scabbard drag marked crown/D and S&K Could the cartouche also be found on S&K sabres be fairly widely distributed in Europe before those trials? I don't have Solingen information regarding all associated markings but the other marks mentioned on this sword read to me more like a Prussian or other acceptance and military number/letter markings for a regiment or battalion. Is this an S&K marked sword? I just don't know. I would be looking at European (even South America) markings such as these describe. I did recently acquire an 1840 type that is entirely devoid of markings on the blade and made in the German fashion of cord over wood, then wire over the leather. This type was/is really the last period of wants for my collecting and researches. Unmarked swords of the period were mroe often thought to be exported from Solingen for whatever purpose an importer/retailer might make use of. Still, a good number of more simply marked with a manufacturer mark and also carry an American retailer's marks. My example has just a small mark on the castings bow and pommel. Still, no real provenance I know of to place it in American use but perhaps more likely than for European proof and unit markings. That is not to say lots of marked swords did not land on American soils for whatever reason but the markings indicated are likely not sure provenance and history of their use. A good many will state that "of course, it must be Confederate and blockade runner's wares". The wristbreaker information from Jim is pretty well founded considering the 1833 sabres preceding it and general little training. Another thought regarding that is that the dragoons who then got the fist true contract swords were not as nice as the trial swords had been. What is always a bit of amusement to me is that the French mle1822 and all the Solingen made swords were widely used throughout Europe until (and past) the 20th century and the one complaint we hear from those troops was a rather dismal outlook on the mle1822 swords for serious work. Cheers Hotspur; Compare how dainty and lively compared to an mle1854 dragon Attached Images

11th July 2009, 05:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,498	Thank you for the additional information Manolo. I think what Glen is saying is very well placed, these may indeed have been European acceptance marks in the cartouche, and the various letters and numerics likely representing the usual initials and inventory.It seems issuance stamps are of course found separate from these type stamps. It is highly worn, so hard to say. Interesting about the Confederate general's sabre. I should have been more precise concerning comments on Civil War swords. The officers in the Confederate cavalry were indeed colorful , often flamboyant and I have often heard them described as 'the last cavaliers'. I believe they did effectively use sabres, however most of the literature on Civil War events does not reflect much on the use of swords. I do know that Custer had a sword with a hilt similar to the M1840, but mounted with a huge, straight Spanish broadsword blade, said to have been taken from a Confederate officer in combat during the Civil War. I actually found this sword in the museum at the Little Big Horn, after we had been trying to find it, and believing it was in the Smithsonian. There are discussions on this sword here in the archives, reflecting the research done. Another sword in similar case was shown here by Matt Branch, it was a Confederate officers sword, with again Spanish broadsword blade marked PDL, (P.D.Luneschloss, Solingen) and inscribed Mexican eagle. This one taken in combat in Tennessee from a Confederate officer. It seems that these swords carried blades from the swords of Mexican officers taken by U.S. officers who later became officers in the Confederate cavalry. I have seen references with Confederate advirtisements in period newspapers requesting swords or edged weapons to be given for the cause. It is well known that the Isaac& Co. pattern 1853 British cavalry sabres were sent to the Confederacy. While the medical records, as noted, show few sword cuts, it does not presume those reports to be comprehensive enough to reflect injuries inflicted or for that matter, deaths, from the clear minority of Confederate officers, or from the sabres used by the outstanding Confederate cavalry units, especially those from Virginia (see Virginia Manufactory thread). Glen is absolutely right, sabres with these style hilts, again based on the French models with brass hilts and so called Phrygian cap pommels, were used by a number of European countries (yes, including Denmark ) While the preponderance of demand in the U.S. during the Civil War brought a huge volume of swords here, one cannot discount the fact that other countries had demand as well, in varying degree. Solingen, the marketing machine for edged weapons, was as always 'working overtime' ! Glen, thank you for the kind note, and for showing the M1840 and French mle 1854........I've never seen them side by side...what contrast!! Interesting.......the mle 1854 has a straight blade......I think these were still considered sabres? Another notch in the terminology syndrome. All best regards, Jim