Guess this Indian sword

[Rick]

Sorry guys for the unintentional thread jacking . I'll start another thread on the kirach later .
My bad .

[Ian]

Jeff:

I think you are correct. That does look like a date of 1197 H.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you!

While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'.

BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah.

Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts I should have brought a video cam!!!

Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution.

Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there.

Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these.
Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim

[RobT]

Thanks Ian for the basket hilt clarification. I wondered why it was less baskety than what is normally seen on a firangi. Thanks to Jens also for information on a blade that I have never before heard of. I do have four questions however. Does the sailaba always come with an Indo/Muslim hilt and is it exclusively a Moslim arm? What does sailaba mean? Most importantly, how did the T-rib so closely associated with northern India come to be found on a south central blade type?
Sincerely,
RobT

[Rick]

I'll start a new thread on the kirach , just to avoid general confusion over Indian sword types .

Yeah , I thought it might be Sikh too .

Coming soon .

[tom hyle]

OK you put it in an envelope, and I'll get my turban
In another stage-magic related matter, did Rick do the disapearing sword trick, or is the computer quicker than the eye (slower than the patience?)? What kirach? I wanna see a kirach

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Jim for the kind words, but don’t overdo it, or I may end believing in it, and self-delusion is something, which one should avoid.

Jeff, I think you are right, so maybe they skipped proof reading the catalogue, which is a sin, not easily forgiven.

RobT, these tulwar/basket hilts are seen, although not very often, and as Ian writes, they disappeared at one point – only I don’t know when, but I think it must have been early 19th century.
I think the answer to the hilt question must be yes, but I would not be surprised if one was found with another hilt type, as many swords were ‘modified’. Yes it is a Muslim weapon, but could no doubt have been used in other places, as looted weapons were used again, sometimes unchanged, and sometimes rehilted. I don’t know what Sailaba means, but the sword type is from Turkey as you can see below, so the word is maybe Turkish but it could also be Indian. The T spine is an interesting question, and you are right that it mostly is associated with the north, but you must also remember that Turkey fought many wars in the north and traded, by the sea, with south India.
Notice tah the same sword can have different names in the north and in the south, although they mostly are called the same.


The text below is from the homepage of The National Museum, New Delhi, and by using the link you can read more about Indian weapons.

With the establishment of Sultanate and later the Mughal rule in India, the weapon underwent a significant change and we see some unique weapons introduced during the period. The Persian sword Shamsheer, the Arabian Zulfiqar and the Turkish Sailaba also appeared on the scene alongwith the indigenous weapons.

http://www.nationalmuseumindia.org/armour.html

[Oriental-Arms]

Few comments if I may:

We came across several similar swords. See for example:



I purchased the upper sword in Udaipur, Rajhastan. The dealer that sold it to us called it Sousson pata (which I agreed) and told us that it is from Rajhastan. The lower one was purchased in the U.S. Its scabbard is now in restoration but please notice the similarities of the fittings to the one shown by Jens, especially the scabbard tip. Both have the Islamic style handle, and both are richly decorated with gold and silver inlay (so I believe is the sword from the Hyderabad museum but it is difficult to see). Both swords has a strong T spine, very similar to Yataghan blades in shape and dimensions, and both have a short ricasso which ones never find on a Turkish Yataghan.



Both blades are forged from high quality wootz steel:





A third similar sword I believe is with Dr. Lee Jones, and I hope Lee can post few photos. This one is of particular interest as the blade is forged from pattern welded steel in the structure known as Turkish Ribbon. It is composed of several strips of twisted steel bars (Turkish stars) forged welded together. We have seen twisted steel on many swords, from Europe to Indonesia. But Turkish Ribbon was so popular on Ottoman swords from the late 17 to the early 19 C. and it is so typical that it is almost screaming I was made in Turkey . What is more interesting about Lee’s sword is that it also has a Ricasso, and the blade is gold inlaid with Indian style decoration.

All this strengthen the Turkish connection. I am almost sure that Lee’s sword was made in Turkey for the Indian market. (Lee, few photos please…)