foreign influence in european arns production?

pallas · 10th July 2009, 07:51 PM

during the carolingian period, where not the frankish swords considered superior to those of the maghrib/middle east/byzantium by the muslims themselves and did not a brisk trade in frankish blades to muslim spain/sicily/maghrib exist, so much so that several popes issued edicts banning the sale of such weapons to the "infidels" over a period of a couple centuries?

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

during the carolingian period, where not the frankish swords considered superior to those of the maghrib/middle east/byzantium by the muslims themselves and did not a brisk trade in frankish blades to muslim spain/sicily/maghrib exist, so much so that several popes issued edicts banning the sale of such weapons to the "infidels" over a period of a couple centuries?

Very good point Pallas! The Frankish swords were indeed considered of the highest quality, and the export of these blades is remarkable in the geographic scope covered. It seems at some earlier point, some of the processes used by the Celtibereans, and later by smiths in Andalusian regions were in some way transmitted to and incorporated into forging by the Franks. It is unclear whether these workers actually went to the Frankish regions to work, or whether the processes were diffused through trade and contact.
It does seem almost ironic that the Frankish swords eventually became so much more in demand.

Much of this is of course , not only the forging techniques, but the quality of the steel as well, which in many cases was simply a raw product imported, not involving foreign workers. In India, the wootz steel was of course readily available, but without the Persian smiths, the end product was quite different.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2009, 04:52 PM

FOUND IT!!!

While poring through loads of material on smallswords in quest of the elusive beaded hilt motif, in J.Aylward's " The Smallsword in England" (1945, p.57), on the smallsword hilts known as 'Tonquinese' (these are elsewhere also termed of the Peking style);

"...made originally in the Far East between 1710 and 1750 to the order of the Dutch East India Company it would seem that the ascription of the work to Tonquinese artists is hardly correct, for while Dampier, for instance, in his "Voyages" ("Dampiers Voyages" Ed. by John Mansfield, 1906) describes all the then manufacturers of Tonquin most closely, he says nothing at all about swords being made there, and it is a historical fact that the Dutch withdrew thier factory from Tonquin in 1707. It is most likely that these weapons were first made for the Dutch factory in Pekin, and it is known that afterwards,

the Company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar character which were fitted with blades made in Holland and in Solingen".

This is the first evidence I have found of 'foreign' workmen being brought into European centers, but it would not seem unusual to find instances elsewhere as well.

All best regards,
Jim

Addendum,
Just found in "Smallswords and Military Swords" (A.V.B. Norman, 1967),
"...Japanese craftsmen were also employed to make hilts for the European market; these were made of the black alloy of copper and gold called shakudo, and partly gilded".
It is noted further on a hilt in the Victoria and Albert Museum mounted by Jan Hosse of Amsterdam seems to be of a group of hilts made for the Dutch East India Company possibly in thier factory at Deshima in Japan".

Samik · 12th July 2009, 06:37 PM

I have an example that could be termed "eastern influence on western armour". I have already posted and discussed it on myarmoury forum
( http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17004 ) , but methinks that you would not mind if I'd shared it with you

This is from a Marble monument dedicated to György Serédy (dated 1549, although some historians date it later to 1557) that is located in a church (St.Egidius, basilica minor) in my hometown of Bardejov, Slovakia ( hope thats not being considered as a commercial but hey you are free to pay a visit if you wish

)

I was told that Serédy's helmet is a burgonet. The one that I find most similar to it is this piece:

However, please note the presence of the "nasal bar" on Serédy's burgonet that is a feature apparently borrowed from the ottoman-turkish çiçak helmet:

Regards,
Samuel

cornelistromp · 12th July 2009, 07:57 PM

Hi All,

the earliest example I can recall is eastern looking sword (japanese) in the
maciejovski bible, French 1250 .

best regards

Samik · 12th July 2009, 08:16 PM

Hi cornelistromp,

Yeah its the infamous "macejowski’s glaive" , personally to me it looks like some sort of a glaive-polearm (hence the name i guess) that was hack off at the shaft. There were heated debates about the origin of the weapon on several other "arms n armour" oriented forums , but to no avail since no such "living" speciment was unearthed. Who knows maybye it was just the authors imagination

(note also the man-at-arms that is hacked in half with his guts out , seems like an exeggaration to make the painting/battle more impresive)

cornelistromp · 12th July 2009, 08:22 PM

in the early 18thC black on the outside (if rubbed copperlike) hilts were imported from perhaps Tonkin to Holland.
the material was called black suassa and is an alloy of antimony, gold and copper.
al lot of chinese and japanese decorative features were on these shakudo hilts. it is certain that VOC (dutch east india company) was the sole importer.at the moment it is not yet known if the company only imported Hilts and sword mounts and that they were asembled in Holland or if blades were exported were all these parts were assembled in Deshima near Nagasaki.

it is unknown if eastern hilt smiths worked in Holland.

the shakudo hilts are of extreme high quality and workmanship.

best regards

Gonzalo G · 16th July 2009, 10:57 PM

I thought my words were very specific. I asked in which way european swords greatly influenced outside world in the 8th-9th Centuries. I am aware of the latter interactions, though it would be convenient to specify every one of them. I don´t believe frankish swords were considered superior to the made inside of the muslim empire. Al-Kindi mentions those swords, and not as superior. Arabs-moors just arrived to the iberic peninsula imported swords because they didn´t had their own manofacture already established, but latter they made their own swords which influenced the europeans. Charlemagne was the first to prohibit the export the frankish swords, and also byrnes, helmets, lances, and all the weaponry, as he was making a military revolution in european terms, and those weapons were neded by them. I don´t believe european production of steel was better than the one from India and maybe other places as Iran and the Middle East, until the 19th Century. Every bit of factual evidence must be considered in the revision of such interactions to avoid the happy (and ungrounded) statements made before by eurocentrist specialists. Just read Oakeshott saying that the scramasax was the ancestor of the szabla-saber, and the kopis the ancestor of the khukri...just because...
Regards

Gonzalo

12th July 2009, 04:52 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	FOUND IT!!! While poring through loads of material on smallswords in quest of the elusive beaded hilt motif, in J.Aylward's " The Smallsword in England" (1945, p.57), on the smallsword hilts known as 'Tonquinese' (these are elsewhere also termed of the Peking style); "...made originally in the Far East between 1710 and 1750 to the order of the Dutch East India Company it would seem that the ascription of the work to Tonquinese artists is hardly correct, for while Dampier, for instance, in his "Voyages" ("Dampiers Voyages" Ed. by John Mansfield, 1906) describes all the then manufacturers of Tonquin most closely, he says nothing at all about swords being made there, and it is a historical fact that the Dutch withdrew thier factory from Tonquin in 1707. It is most likely that these weapons were first made for the Dutch factory in Pekin, and it is known that afterwards, the Company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar character which were fitted with blades made in Holland and in Solingen". This is the first evidence I have found of 'foreign' workmen being brought into European centers, but it would not seem unusual to find instances elsewhere as well. All best regards, Jim Addendum, Just found in "Smallswords and Military Swords" (A.V.B. Norman, 1967), "...Japanese craftsmen were also employed to make hilts for the European market; these were made of the black alloy of copper and gold called shakudo, and partly gilded". It is noted further on a hilt in the Victoria and Albert Museum mounted by Jan Hosse of Amsterdam seems to be of a group of hilts made for the Dutch East India Company possibly in thier factory at Deshima in Japan". Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th July 2009 at 05:05 PM.

12th July 2009, 06:37 PM	#4
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	I have an example that could be termed "eastern influence on western armour". I have already posted and discussed it on myarmoury forum ( http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17004 ) , but methinks that you would not mind if I'd shared it with you This is from a Marble monument dedicated to György Serédy (dated 1549, although some historians date it later to 1557) that is located in a church (St.Egidius, basilica minor) in my hometown of Bardejov, Slovakia ( hope thats not being considered as a commercial but hey you are free to pay a visit if you wish ) I was told that Serédy's helmet is a burgonet. The one that I find most similar to it is this piece: However, please note the presence of the "nasal bar" on Serédy's burgonet that is a feature apparently borrowed from the ottoman-turkish çiçak helmet: Regards, Samuel Last edited by Samik; 12th July 2009 at 08:18 PM.

12th July 2009, 07:57 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi All, the earliest example I can recall is eastern looking sword (japanese) in the maciejovski bible, French 1250 . best regards Attached Images

12th July 2009, 08:22 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	shakudo hilted Dutch swords in the early 18thC black on the outside (if rubbed copperlike) hilts were imported from perhaps Tonkin to Holland. the material was called black suassa and is an alloy of antimony, gold and copper. al lot of chinese and japanese decorative features were on these shakudo hilts. it is certain that VOC (dutch east india company) was the sole importer.at the moment it is not yet known if the company only imported Hilts and sword mounts and that they were asembled in Holland or if blades were exported were all these parts were assembled in Deshima near Nagasaki. it is unknown if eastern hilt smiths worked in Holland. the shakudo hilts are of extreme high quality and workmanship. best regards Attached Images

10th July 2009, 07:51 PM	#1
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	during the carolingian period, where not the frankish swords considered superior to those of the maghrib/middle east/byzantium by the muslims themselves and did not a brisk trade in frankish blades to muslim spain/sicily/maghrib exist, so much so that several popes issued edicts banning the sale of such weapons to the "infidels" over a period of a couple centuries?

12th July 2009, 08:16 PM	#6
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Hi cornelistromp, Yeah its the infamous "macejowski’s glaive" , personally to me it looks like some sort of a glaive-polearm (hence the name i guess) that was hack off at the shaft. There were heated debates about the origin of the weapon on several other "arms n armour" oriented forums , but to no avail since no such "living" speciment was unearthed. Who knows maybye it was just the authors imagination (note also the man-at-arms that is hacked in half with his guts out , seems like an exeggaration to make the painting/battle more impresive)

16th July 2009, 10:57 PM	#8
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I thought my words were very specific. I asked in which way european swords greatly influenced outside world in the 8th-9th Centuries. I am aware of the latter interactions, though it would be convenient to specify every one of them. I don´t believe frankish swords were considered superior to the made inside of the muslim empire. Al-Kindi mentions those swords, and not as superior. Arabs-moors just arrived to the iberic peninsula imported swords because they didn´t had their own manofacture already established, but latter they made their own swords which influenced the europeans. Charlemagne was the first to prohibit the export the frankish swords, and also byrnes, helmets, lances, and all the weaponry, as he was making a military revolution in european terms, and those weapons were neded by them. I don´t believe european production of steel was better than the one from India and maybe other places as Iran and the Middle East, until the 19th Century. Every bit of factual evidence must be considered in the revision of such interactions to avoid the happy (and ungrounded) statements made before by eurocentrist specialists. Just read Oakeshott saying that the scramasax was the ancestor of the szabla-saber, and the kopis the ancestor of the khukri...just because... Regards Gonzalo