Breech loading 1450-1550

[Matchlock]

Hi broadaxe,

Thanks for that perfectly documentary contribution!

Michael

[Matchlock]

Two multistage barrel breech loading pieces in a ca. 1480 woodcut from a chronicle of Flanders, printed 1531.

Note the guy kneeling in the fore ground hammering a wooden plug into a breech. The interchangeable breeches contained only the powder while the ball was shoved separately into the rear of the barrel.

Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michael,

I risk being asking the obvious, or having negleted some of the 'lectures' you already have posted, so forgive me for asking you now the folowing:

1 - Were breech chamber locking bars allways made of iron, or were some other times of wood?

2 - Were chambers allways only loaded with gunpowder, or were they some times loaded also with the projectile?

Sorry for my ignorance .

Fernando

[bluelake]

Very interesting thread. Korea had very similar breech loaders, made of bronze, called bulangipo, which were used from the 15th century up into the late 19th century. They came in a variety of sizes.

The pictures here were taken at the Korean Army Museum at the Korea Military Academy.

[Spiridonov]

When I was looked at "A Unique South German Breech Loading Arquebus, ca. 1470-1500" I was confused by one interesring detail. The part of the shape wich in red ring looks too futuristic for Ghiberti Lorenzo death-date. It is similar with element of shape of arquebuses from Zeugbuch Kaiser Maximilians I (1502).
Else one interesting detail - It seems that earlier here there was a lever for opening which has been lost later

[Matchlock]

Very keen observations, Alexander!

Best wishes,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

What do you thing about dating of this barrel? Maby the notebook of Ghiberti Lorenzo was added later by another author?

[Matchlock]

I had almost forgotten about these. I photographed them in a North German private collection some 20 years ago. There was a fragment of a breech loading cannon with the muzzle section missing, and two belonging breeches, all salvaged from sea. The guy would not deaccession of them.

The sensation about them was that both breeches still contained their original black powder loads plugged by wooden stops! I have never seen anything like that in any museum! (They might have some at the Mary Rose Museum but not to my knowledge). Both their strap handles were missing save small fragments.

Enjoy!

Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,

There is no need to worry, sometimes I cannot remember myself what I posted before or not.

1. I know of no surviving locking bars for breeches but think that they may have been of either iron or wood.

2. I cannot tell for sure but when relying on the two actually surviving objects I have posted today I think that we may assume that the breech contained only the powder charge and a wooden plug.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michael,
Thank you so much

Originally Posted by Matchlock

1. I know of no surviving locking bars for breeches ....

Even taking into account Brodaxe's post #18 in this thread?

Fernando

[Matchlock]

Especially taking broadaxe's documentation into consideration, Fernando.

As e.g. your postings have taught me almost anything must be granted to be a possible solution (remember the wooden hooks on haquenuts?) Iron wedges would of course have been more stable and thus more probable.

Michael

[Spiridonov]

Two 15 century breach-loading guns from museum of artillery in Saint-Petersberg

[Zwielicht]

Matchlock,

Thank you for a photos of breech loading harquebus in the post #5!

But one thing I cannot understand from those photos - where was the hole in the cartridge, through which it's powder charge was ignited, and was the bullet put in the cartridge or right to the barrel before it?

Also, what are the dimensions of this a weapon (at least the basics - length, weight, caliber etc.)

[Matchlock]

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for deleting those posts containing erraneous thoughts that were not mine! You sure did a great job.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Author's photos taken in the Hofrüstkammer Vienna.

[Swordfish]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

Hallo,

The chambers or cartidges of breech loading handguns were not loded with powder and plug. The attached photo is taken from an article of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen und Kostümkunde (Volume 9 of 1922, No.4), a standard work on arms and armour, which should be familiar to any who can read German. The photo shows two chambers of breech loading handguns of the 15th Century in the collection of the Berlin armoury. Both chambers contain the original charge of powder and lead bullet. This is a clear indication that at least chambers of small bore were loaded with a lead bullet, and the bullet was not pushed awkward in the rear of the barrel before inserting the chamber.

Best wishes

Susi

[Matchlock]

Hi Susi and welcome here,

Thank you for your interesting input from the Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde. I have been a member of their society for 30 years and own all their volumes from 1897 thru 2010.

First, these are by no means exchangebale breeches for 'handguns' but for cannon! Portable handguns of the 15th century had small bores of ca. 12-16 mm and their breech chamber never had handles; they had no grips at all and and an overall length of only ca. 6-8 cm. Please cf. the measurements of the 1540 Passau arquebus breech chamber you cited!

Second, these seem to be exceptions to the rule. For these unregulated ages, almost anything was possible in general. As I noted though earlier in this thread, we know of other loaded breech loading cannon chambers only containing powder and wooden plug, and attached I repost my own photos of one of them. The rest of the original handle can bee seen.
Similar ones were found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, sunken in 1545, also just loaded with powder and plug.

'Nando, my dear friend, would you mind posting good images and measurements of your ca. 1440 fine cannon chamber as this is almost identical to the ones preserved in Berlin?

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Michael, do You have a more qualitative photo of muzzle end of this barrel or high resolution of this photo?

[Matchlock]

Alexender,


I attached the only other image I have of this gun, plus a magnified detail; sorry.

I expect the muzzle to look very similar to that of my 1481 Munich/Passau barrel though, with a bell-shaped mouth (bottom attachments).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7107



Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Thank You, Michael! It's enough to understand the shape of the barrel end

[Matchlock]

The iron wedge is also retained.

Found on a dealer's site, labeled 'sold'.


m

[Matchlock]

Both thhese arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

The first arquebus is preserved in unusually fine original and near mint condition; its surface colors with the striking dark blue and the bright polished acanthus leave friezes in between, contrasting with the light brown color of the pearwood full stock decorated with dark Early-Renaissance loops and tulips or hops (German Hopfendolden), demonstrate how overwhelming the impact of Early Renaissance coloring on 500 year-old weapons actually was!
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a wood screw is missing from the rear end of the trigger guard.
A small piece of wood has been replaced below the dog.

This arquebus is preserved in the Jagdmuseum (hunting castle) Grunewald near Berlin, inv.no. AD.9078.
Overall length 117.8 cm, barrel 84.3 cm, caliber 14 mm smoothbore.[I]


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Both, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.

Both have self-spanning mechanisms as well!


They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog sprimg running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

The first arquebus is preserved in unusually fine original and near mint condition; its surface colors with the striking dark blue and the bright polished acanthus leave friezes in between, contrasting with the light brown color of the pearwood full stock decorated with dark Early-Renaissance loops and tulips or hops (German Hopfendolden), demonstrate how overwhelming the impact of Early Renaissance coloring on 500 year-old weapons actually was!
On breech-loading guns, the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted (système à la tabatière). On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also, a wood screw is missing from the rear end of the trigger guard.
A small piece of wood has been replaced below the dog.

This arquebus is preserved in the Jagdmuseum (hunting castle) Grunewald near Berlin, inv.no. AD.9078.
Overall length 117.8 cm, barrel 84.3 cm, caliber 14 mm smoothbore.

.

[Matchlock]

Both these arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

This second arquebus is preserved in much less fine original condition but the iron parts show a nice old yellowish dried-oil surface, and together with what might be traces of the original bluing/case-hardening color, plus some fine greenish grease resulting from the chemical influence of the copper-soldered iron parts seen on the inside of the open breech, and the patina of the stock, they all add up to a very charming impression of a virtually 'untouched' piece, a sleeper.
The stock of this piece is painted black, which is not necessarily its original color.
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, as on his other breech-loading guns, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The dog for the pyrites is missing from this gun, and we cannot see the inside lock mechanism, but we may assume with sufficient certainty that it, too, originally employed a self-spanning action.
The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The iron cartridge is missing from the breech. The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing, too; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a part of the swiveling safety catch is missing on the rear left-hand side of the lock plate, as well as the originally dove-tailed backsight of the barrel.


This arquebus is preserved in the Rotunda Museum of Royal Artillery, Woolwich, Great Britain.
May I ask the curators of the Rotunda to be kind enough to take out the lock from the stock and take good images from various angles of its inside mechanism? I would then gratefully comment on the gun with greater authority.



Overall length ca. 118 cm, barrel ca. 84 cm, caliber ca. 14 mm smoothbore.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Both these arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

This second arquebus is preserved in much less fine original condition but the iron parts show a nice old yellowish dried-oil surface, and together with what might be traces of the original bluing/case-hardening color, plus some fine greenish grease resulting from the chemical influence of the copper-soldered iron parts seen on the inside of the open breech, and the patina of the stock, they all add up to a very charming impression of a virtually 'untouched' piece, a sleeper.
The stock of this piece is painted black, which is not necessarily its original color.
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, as on his other breech-loading guns, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The dog for the pyrites is missing from this gun, and we cannot see the inside lock mechanism, but we may assume with sufficient certainty that it, too, originally employed a self-spanning action.
The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The iron cartridge is missing from the breech. The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing, too; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a part of the swiveling safety catch is missing on the rear left-hand side of the lock plate, as well as the originally dove-tailed backsight of the barrel.


This arquebus is preserved in the Rotunda Museum of Royal Artillery, Woolwich, Great Britain.
May I ask the curators of the Rotunda to be kind enough to take out the lock from the stock and take good images from various angles of its inside mechanism? I would then gratefully comment on the gun with greater authority.



Overall length ca. 118 cm, barrel ca. 84 cm, caliber ca. 14 mm smoothbore.


Best,
Michael
Attached Images

[Matchlock]

Finally here is the link to the video.


The section on the 1540 wheellock starts ca. 14 seconds after the beginning of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSyxpvIZXxY

That guy, Iain, is stating a few things that are incorrect.
E.g., he actually touches the wheel, encircling it and at the same saying that it is missing - which of course is complete rubbish!


I thought the Rotunda had personnel that at least knew what they were talking about ...


Best,
Michael