Five Ball Hilt spadroons

fernando · 5th July 2009, 10:23 PM

To tell the true, i wouldn't know what a spadroon would be called in Portuguese sword typology.
This picture represents what is called a military sword from the period of King Dom José. I seem to notice that it has some resemblance with the usually illustrated spadroons. A very fine example, with a silver hilt and an ivory grip, with silver filets. The blade is single edged by three quarters and double in the last section, with the legend VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. The text also mentions that, swords of this type, were also used in the (Portuguese) Navy.
Its age is estimated around 1775-1800.
Now, would somebody tell me if this example is far from being what is considered a spadroon?
Fernando

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celtan · 6th July 2009, 11:51 PM

The word espadon is still used in Spain, but now it refers to a large digging spade.

Nando, I believe your example fully fits the bill for a spadroon.

Beautiful weapon

Best

M

Dmitry · 9th July 2009, 02:59 PM

Hello, gentlemen.

We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways -
HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard
or
BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge

Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello, gentlemen.

We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways -
HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard
or
BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge

Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

Hi Dmitry,
Welcome aboard!!!!! I'm really glad to have you with us!!!

Good points on the definition of the term 'spadroon' , and it is so true that terminology is often the bane of typologists with the classification of weapons. With that, I'd like to add some of my thoughts to date that the readership might find interesting.

In the study of ethnographic weapons, as an example, the swords of India carry the conundrum of the terms tulwar vs. shamshir. Is a sword with a tulwar style Indo-Persian hilt (with disc pommel) mounted with a Persian blade a shamshir, by the blade?, or tulwar ?( by definition an Indian word for 'sword', but by application construed as the familiar Indian sabre).

I have seen Persian shamshirs, which of course found great favor in Mughal courts, classified among Indian weapons as tulwars.

While on the subject of shamshirs, the topic of terminology brings up the very exotic term 'scimitar', which in my opinion is more of a linguistic term used in romanticized literature to describe curved Eastern sabres. The word itself is generally held to have been a transliterated version of the word 'shamshir' arrived at through a 'perfect storm' of translations in several interlinguistic exchanges.

Personally, I am seriously wondering if the term 'spadroon' was simply a fashionable allusion to the described move in Italian fencing, and applied by those hoping to suggest cut and thrust associations recalling those of the smallsword. It seems clear that the intent was to add a certain 'elegance' of station to these military swords for infantry officers in a time when the neoclassic theme was rapidly becoming popular.
Until the introduction of the infantry officers sword was introduced in 1786, I have understood that the polearm known as the 'spontoon' was symbolic of that rank, though in the Revolutionary War proved patently absurd in the styles of combat that became known in actions there.
Perhaps the 'oon' suffix added to the fashionable 'espadon' terms from the Italian term? although admittedly simplistic, might explain what was probably a colloquial application initially.

Returning to the neoclassic associations described in these times and these swords, the British M1796 was also a blade of this type, with a hilt clearly recalling the gentlemans smallsword, with shellguards and a classical pommel. It is unclear whether these swords following the seemingly soundly classified 'spadroons' of the M1786, now with the type having moved into naval swords and across the continent, were also termed 'spadroons'.
It would seem that the term was applied to them occasionally, but not nearly with the consistancy and conviction well established with the five ball hilt form.
In France, the examples with numeric ball motif were simply termed with reference to 'in English style', and I do not believe the examples that began use in the Federal period in the U.S. were referred to as 'spadroons'. The British naval examples I think did receive the appellation in degree, but not universally, and again, recalling the original infantry use.

It seems that by blade definition, these would simply be 'backswords'...but then there is yet another quite profoundly debated issue over the term 'broadsword' and 'backsword'....as in those times in certain instances, the broadsword term was applied to single edge swords. Perhaps this might have brought the detour, at least at that time, to spadroon rather than having this new type sword fall into that fray?

All of these thoughts are presented simply as open observations that may or may not be considered possible explanations for this intriguing term for these swords.

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 9th July 2009, 10:38 PM

Hi Jim,

Just to add to the "ooning." Wasn't the blunderbuss also called a "musketoon" (link), especially when it was associated with naval use? I wonder if the "oon" suffix might not just be for something diminutive, but also something that was used on ships? That doesn't sound quite true for the spontoon, but still...

Just a thought,

F

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2009, 01:17 AM

Hi Fearn,
Thank you for adding that, and it is definitely interesting to see that application, which I hadn't thought of. Emphatically noting that I am no linguist, for some reason I also have thought that particular 'oon' suffix was sort of diminutive, i.e. indicating a smaller more versatile weapon.
In any case good thinking, and in simply laying the cards on the table kind of discussion, it is good to be able to evaluate the potential for all of these possibilities. Sometimes things seem simplistic or outlandish, however anyone who has studied etymology or cliches and commonly used phrases, it is often amazing how these developed. I would think it quite possible the use of the spadroon term might have such beginnings.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Linguists out there....please do not look into my ramblings and add the word 'buffoon'

while we are ooning!

5th July 2009, 10:23 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	To tell the true, i wouldn't know what a spadroon would be called in Portuguese sword typology. This picture represents what is called a military sword from the period of King Dom José. I seem to notice that it has some resemblance with the usually illustrated spadroons. A very fine example, with a silver hilt and an ivory grip, with silver filets. The blade is single edged by three quarters and double in the last section, with the legend VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. The text also mentions that, swords of this type, were also used in the (Portuguese) Navy. Its age is estimated around 1775-1800. Now, would somebody tell me if this example is far from being what is considered a spadroon? Fernando . Attached Images

6th July 2009, 11:51 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	The word espadon is still used in Spain, but now it refers to a large digging spade. Nando, I believe your example fully fits the bill for a spadroon. Beautiful weapon Best M

9th July 2009, 02:59 PM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hello, gentlemen. We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways - HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard or BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

9th July 2009, 10:38 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Just to add to the "ooning." Wasn't the blunderbuss also called a "musketoon" (link), especially when it was associated with naval use? I wonder if the "oon" suffix might not just be for something diminutive, but also something that was used on ships? That doesn't sound quite true for the spontoon, but still... Just a thought, F

10th July 2009, 01:17 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Fearn, Thank you for adding that, and it is definitely interesting to see that application, which I hadn't thought of. Emphatically noting that I am no linguist, for some reason I also have thought that particular 'oon' suffix was sort of diminutive, i.e. indicating a smaller more versatile weapon. In any case good thinking, and in simply laying the cards on the table kind of discussion, it is good to be able to evaluate the potential for all of these possibilities. Sometimes things seem simplistic or outlandish, however anyone who has studied etymology or cliches and commonly used phrases, it is often amazing how these developed. I would think it quite possible the use of the spadroon term might have such beginnings. All the best, Jim P.S. Linguists out there....please do not look into my ramblings and add the word 'buffoon' while we are ooning!