Five Ball Hilt spadroons

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Outstanding and well detailed information, and when I first posted this topic I had hoped to discover more on these interesting swords, I certainly had not expected to have the good fortune of such expertise entering in on the discussion. I am really glad to have Glen here with us, and sharing this insight and material. I look forward to Dmitri also participating , and seeing the core of knowledge ever increasing here!!

Very good points made on the presumption of Masonic symbolism, which as noted certainly could be construed into analysis of motif in many ways. I have often thought that in many cases determining what something is, sometimes involves clearly understanding what it is not. While Occam would probably shudder at such an idea, it is typically just an exercise I often apply in varying degree in establishing the validity in elements of data and ideas.

I am always grateful for soundly supported evidence, newly discovered data and especially well placed observations, clearly as presented here.
Again, welcome Glen, Im very glad you're here!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 3rd July 2009, 11:04 PM

Hi Jim,

I am way out of my depth stepping in on this one, so please forgive me if this information is too out dated. Regarding the 5-ball hilt, you might try finding the article by W.E. May "The 5-Ball Type of Sword" Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, No. 8, pp. 153-156 . In it he observes that the style came into use in the Navy shortly before 1790 and went out in 1805. He thinks it was in use in the army prior to this. He also gives a list of known variations of the motif but doesn't speculate on its significance. Seems to me I have another article on them, but, where? I will let you know if I find anything else.

I hope this helps
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2009, 11:31 PM

Yay Jeff!!! That was the article I was trying to think of!!! Thank you for including that, and for coming in on this. It would appear this topic is even farther out of my depth than I thought, and its great to see revitalized research with all of the top guns (er, swords!) in on this.

Thanks so much,
All the best,
Jim

Hotspur · 4th July 2009, 04:30 AM

A better look of my two eagle spadroons. The five ball is one of the ubiquotous Ketland typethat could easily be as late as the 1820s or 1830s but as it is ivory and not bone, that would more likely predate 1812. The fellow on the right could be the first decade 19th century and more likely right at the cusp of the century. There ar eno martial engravings on that one at all, which is a bit unusual for the genre, The middle is a sabre of the Osborn type of weeping eagle and possibly as late as the 1812 war vintage. It more reminds the the three together as Moe, Larry and Curly. My three stooges. The dirk is undefined but post 1872 and shares the same scabbard as some of the Shriners middle east looking sabres. The sabre on the right is similar to some of the mid 20th century Italian air force hilts but has a naval flip-up basket. A Horster blade. The grip had been knid of scuffed sharkskin and rather than refinish white, it is black stove paint. It is also missing its decorative crown nut and I put it together with a standard cutlery nut. Both the dirk and the late sabre were at giveaway prices but I had gone to pick up the dirk specifically (unloved and unknown by the seller).

Anyway, spadroons on the left. TWo very different blades in that the Ketland seems to have been a better rolling mill endeavor. The difference to the Bolton blade is just that, more irregular about its margins and less mass produced. Although labeled in the books as Ketland, the mess of cutlers in Birmingham at the time makes any batch of them by any number of shops. Blades at one, engraving and gilt at another, castings from yet a third and then possibly actually assembled in the Ketland shop but most likely contracted right up to the point up to delivery of entire swords to Ketland, who then acted as a distributor. The same thing was going on with their firearms, from what I read of that business.

Cheers

Hotspur; Mark at Old Swords has an immense database for Birmingham

3rd July 2009, 11:04 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, I am way out of my depth stepping in on this one, so please forgive me if this information is too out dated. Regarding the 5-ball hilt, you might try finding the article by W.E. May "The 5-Ball Type of Sword" Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, No. 8, pp. 153-156 . In it he observes that the style came into use in the Navy shortly before 1790 and went out in 1805. He thinks it was in use in the army prior to this. He also gives a list of known variations of the motif but doesn't speculate on its significance. Seems to me I have another article on them, but, where? I will let you know if I find anything else. I hope this helps Jeff

3rd July 2009, 11:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Yay Jeff!!! That was the article I was trying to think of!!! Thank you for including that, and for coming in on this. It would appear this topic is even farther out of my depth than I thought, and its great to see revitalized research with all of the top guns (er, swords!) in on this. Thanks so much, All the best, Jim

4th July 2009, 04:30 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	A better look of my two eagle spadroons. The five ball is one of the ubiquotous Ketland typethat could easily be as late as the 1820s or 1830s but as it is ivory and not bone, that would more likely predate 1812. The fellow on the right could be the first decade 19th century and more likely right at the cusp of the century. There ar eno martial engravings on that one at all, which is a bit unusual for the genre, The middle is a sabre of the Osborn type of weeping eagle and possibly as late as the 1812 war vintage. It more reminds the the three together as Moe, Larry and Curly. My three stooges. The dirk is undefined but post 1872 and shares the same scabbard as some of the Shriners middle east looking sabres. The sabre on the right is similar to some of the mid 20th century Italian air force hilts but has a naval flip-up basket. A Horster blade. The grip had been knid of scuffed sharkskin and rather than refinish white, it is black stove paint. It is also missing its decorative crown nut and I put it together with a standard cutlery nut. Both the dirk and the late sabre were at giveaway prices but I had gone to pick up the dirk specifically (unloved and unknown by the seller). Anyway, spadroons on the left. TWo very different blades in that the Ketland seems to have been a better rolling mill endeavor. The difference to the Bolton blade is just that, more irregular about its margins and less mass produced. Although labeled in the books as Ketland, the mess of cutlers in Birmingham at the time makes any batch of them by any number of shops. Blades at one, engraving and gilt at another, castings from yet a third and then possibly actually assembled in the Ketland shop but most likely contracted right up to the point up to delivery of entire swords to Ketland, who then acted as a distributor. The same thing was going on with their firearms, from what I read of that business. Cheers Hotspur; Mark at Old Swords has an immense database for Birmingham