Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nicely done on the Castle reference Chris, thank you!

And thanks to you too for your kind words and initiating this thread.

It seems you are extremely well versed in fencing, are you a fencer yourself? I noticed your reference to Angelo in addition to the Castle work.

Not really, though I did learn a bit of the military sabre-sword, as used by infantry, in my teen years, but that was using wands and doing only the basic moves over and over plus some extremely simple pre-arranged exchanges with a partner. No safety gear of any kind and rough or free play was forbidden. Boring and simple stuff at best. However, ever since then I have had a life long armchair fascination with swordplay.

BTW. A bit more information on Spadroons from E.D.Morton:

"...... It was slightly adapted, by the British Army, for use as the standard infantry officer's sword, but proving grossly inefficient in the Peninsular War (1808-14), became the subject of many complaints."

I also had a very hasty look in Norman's and whilst he devotes some space to this weapon, I could not find an answer to the perplexing numbers of balls on the knuckle guards and their curatorial significance.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

My pleasure Chris. I experienced a liitle fencing also, it seems several lifetimes ago, and with the sabre as well. We did use the mask and gear, but one learned quickly as those stiff blades really hurt on a good hit, one on the side of the mask would rattle your head pretty good! Not sure if that was supposed to happen, but it sure did.

I finally dragged out my trusty Robson (not an easy task finding it in this bookmobile) and found that these infantry swords were indeed not too well thought of. On p.107 Robson notes that the M1786 hilts were flimsy wigh minimal hand protection, despite its intent for a fighting weapon with potential for cut and thrust.

It noted that prior to 1786, the symbol of authority for infantry officers was the staff weapon known as the 'spontoon'. I wonder if the term for the sword introduced to replace this might have somehow inspired the term 'spadroon', which was apparantly already in the parlance of swordplay and the fashionable smallsword?

Robson notes further that the outbreak of war with France in 1793 and further displeasure with these hilts may have led to a new style hilt in 1796, which was similar to the smallsword with the double shell guard, and using the same style blade.

With your quotation from Morton concerning the complaints on these infantry swords, which at this point must have been the shellguard pattern 1796, Robson cites another;
"...nothing could be more useless or more ridiculous than the old infantry regulation sword, it was good for neither cut nor thrust and was a perfect encumbrance".
Gen. Cavalie Mercer, remininscing about Royal
Artillery at turn of the 18th century.

It remains unclear whether the spadroon term continued to be used referring to the subsequent pattern 1796. Robson does note that the five ball hilt did become popular with English naval officers c.1790, and that the French adopted the form for naval and dragoon officers c.1800 (described as a'la anglaise= in the English style). The U.S. adopted the pattern about 1812, and seems typically associated with 'Federal Period' eagleheads.

Nick Norman was a brilliant scholar, and his book is an amazing reference using actual art and portraiture to date hilt forms. I was truly surprised that there was no attention given to this curious feature, but given the monumental undertaking of this work I suppose it would have been extremely difficult to attend to such a detail. As I have mentioned, it would seem that the only arms scholar who seems to have considered this hilt feature a curiosity or anomaly was May.....until us

All very best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi guys, I am somewhat of a spadroon enthusiast and can't say no to just one. Some have indicated that the term more relates to hilt type than specifically the blade, as we see shallow double diamond crossections of the same period.

In terms of the beading, my impression from some studdy is that they staryted to turn up on the continent and then somewhat went wild in Birmingham and then on specifically American market swords. While seven may seem unusual, by the first quarter of the 19th century, some have shown more than seven. Celtan's seven ball, with the indicated etched rather than engraved blade and a later knuckle bow that is a squared step at the pommel end instead of the earlier period with this bird that inevitably had a round step that was actually the casting boss to be optioned as a ring, which is found on a fair number of them.

Salter just listed and quite uniform three ball that is somewhat undeniably late in make, albeit a cushion pommel. I'll see if I can pull these up via attachments here. The many beaded is clearly seen in Perterson's bible, yet not just like the seven balled example shown here. I would dispute it to be a matter of a badge of rank exceping for those early French beaded hilts (of typically three or less in contrasting scale).

My files are a bit of a mess after a meltdown on the last drive. I hope to recover my 2008 and part of this year's work. Mowbray the younger and Fladerman put together a good book as well. It includes the chronology of a good many books.

Lets see here: Some odd balls, including some spadroons with a reproduction Patton and a period 1854 for scale. The pretty Frenck one with the cigar band went to Dmitry in a momentary lapse of my mind but it did help reach my funds for the mle1854. The two eagles include one five ball. I think the general knowledge base reaches most folk as the five ballers the one they think of, so other peculiar numbers seems noteworthy but the truth is that there was a wide range and variety that (I believe) started with the French and other continental trends and fancy. More than a non-com? Sure I'd buy that philosophy but (my feeling and investigation) seeing seven on a post 1812 war eagle didn't mean diddley squat compared to some of the wilder cutlery we see from that period. Seeing more or less on an American market sword simply means a special request, or indeed an option, as I have seen other seven balls on that eagle hilt. It could happen as easily as a cutler simply filing two more graduated balls on the same hilt as the five.

Cheers

Hotspur; there is a dandy five out there somewhere that I have dubbed the earliest five baller out there but it is probably just my enthusiasm

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Hotspur,
I wanted to welcome you, and thank you for the great insight and illustrations on these interesting swords, outstanding grouping there!!!
I think there does seem to be some differences in opinion, as is often the case, whether a sword is identified by term for the blade type or hilt style.
To me the spadroon term seems to be more a colloquial term used by officers, as the M1796 infantry officers swords do not seem to be referred to as spadroons, even though the blade form I believe was essentially the same.

I agree that the five ball style turned up on the Continent not too long after the British M1786 infantry officers sword was around. My main point of interest has always been, why the five ball motif? Was it possibly a Masonic numeric association? its transference to the Continent via fraternal associations, which were certainly a gentry oriented possibility . The eventual departure from the five ball numeric seems to correspond to other numerics also significant in symbolism, three and seven. But then the variations appear, and as noted, the Federal period eagleheads with varying numbers appear in the U.S.
While personal preference may have been behind the numbers chosen, the five seem to appear on many, and there were of course significant Masons among American officers as well.

The stirrup hilt with birdhead pommel and writhen knuckleguard is really intriguing, especially with the star and sunburst on the langet. Now that one would really be a hit here in Texas!!!
It seems also a Federal period type, is it?

Again, thank you for these postings.

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Nice pics ! : )

I also like these...Spadroons?. I must admit they are not the most effective of weapons, somewhat unwieldy, but the straight blade and the stirrup hilt give them a stately appearance, simple yet noble. They are more suited up to be a symbol of power than an instrument of power.

I had a most illuminating exchange at another forum, I learned more from the discussion there than from reading Mowbray's. One of the local veterans, Glenn, was an expert in early american swords. He posited a relation between Ames and the early Eagle pommels. (IIRC, Ames imported them from England) . Another interesting tidbit was that they were in full fashion locally _20 years after_ their use was abandoned in Europe.

Jim: I find the numerology association with the Masons very intriguing. My grandfather was very high in the Mason's hierarchy, I didn't know this until very recently. I remember him always telling me that my "lucky number" was five, and never to forget it. What the significance of the numbers 3/5/7 in Mason's lore?

OTOH, perhaps they used 3/5/7 balls depending on the size of the striking hand?

Best

Manuel Luis

[Hotspur]

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

[celtan]

Talk about coincidences.

I take it then that you're the fabled Glen C. from SFI that I was mentioning?

Welcome then (again), to our merry lil' troupe .

I should have known after you mentioned Dmitri, since he has not yet posted in our forum, AFAIK. Heck, I now remember the sword you mention, with the cigar ring. It iwas indeed beautiful

I own Dmitri some pictures from a cossack sword he asked about, which as it turned out, I didn'thave time to deliver. I always honor my promises. If I post them tp Photobucket, would you mind contacting him and delivering the link?

LBNL, did Ames place his seal on the imported swords?

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

PD: There's a data recovery program called EASEUS that has literally worked miracles for me. AFAIK, it is not commercially available. You need to contact it's developer in China, he sells it online. G'luck..!

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

[Hotspur]

Hi Manuel,

Dmitry should be on board here just about anytime, as it was he who promted me to register. I could have sworn I had registered in the past but it may have been the old board. Dmitry had been looking for a reference for me, which I willingly offered to Lee as well. Lee indicated he would contact Dmitry.

Yes, recovery. I hope it to be a breeze and have a piece of hardware coming in a few days. In gutting out the old tower, I'm pretty sure the failure was just a power supply but it had filled up with dust bunnies as well. As the power supply had been running very hot before the failure, I have my money on that. A good bit of the files I lost were simply picture archives and I have been going back to retreive what I can from online sources.

Topically, here are some more pictures of the one with a scabbard. This one from roughly the turn of the century. A German blade with a very American silver wash hilt. This one is actually quite dainty but in line for an early militia officer. We see sabres with this hilt more often. I have been working on restoring the silver on this one.

Cheers

Hotspur; this new laptop has much more ability than my old dinosaur

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Outstanding and well detailed information, and when I first posted this topic I had hoped to discover more on these interesting swords, I certainly had not expected to have the good fortune of such expertise entering in on the discussion. I am really glad to have Glen here with us, and sharing this insight and material. I look forward to Dmitri also participating , and seeing the core of knowledge ever increasing here!!

Very good points made on the presumption of Masonic symbolism, which as noted certainly could be construed into analysis of motif in many ways. I have often thought that in many cases determining what something is, sometimes involves clearly understanding what it is not. While Occam would probably shudder at such an idea, it is typically just an exercise I often apply in varying degree in establishing the validity in elements of data and ideas.

I am always grateful for soundly supported evidence, newly discovered data and especially well placed observations, clearly as presented here.
Again, welcome Glen, Im very glad you're here!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

I am way out of my depth stepping in on this one, so please forgive me if this information is too out dated. Regarding the 5-ball hilt, you might try finding the article by W.E. May "The 5-Ball Type of Sword" Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, No. 8, pp. 153-156 . In it he observes that the style came into use in the Navy shortly before 1790 and went out in 1805. He thinks it was in use in the army prior to this. He also gives a list of known variations of the motif but doesn't speculate on its significance. Seems to me I have another article on them, but, where? I will let you know if I find anything else.

I hope this helps
Jeff

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Thanks for the link, I am downloading now (dial-up). I admire researchers a good bit, yet tend to be quite contentious regarding speculations and hunches. I know I pursue my own a good bit of the time. Another had prompted me regarding some other Ames information and ended up looking at the perspective a good way back in the Ames family history. I will read it though, as something that will be on my bookshelf. Another article from MAA cued some more though about Ames in particular and as there are two seven ball examples I blame on Ames castings (or his supplier) Hamilton's notes are something I should be reviewing (along with adding his Ames book at some point). The thing is though that he seems a bit oblivious about the family history (in print anyway). Some of the Ames letters online are fascinating. Agreeably, a proponderance of American officers were MAsons, or affiliated with a good many participating with anumber of fraternities. I look forward to reading the article.

Wait, wait wait, it is about a twenty minute download for me but I will check it out.

Cheers

Hotspur; still twenty minutes, yarrrrrr