Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[celtan]

Espadon would be Spanish, literally big sword. In French, a espada would be a epee. A big epee...?

Would a 7-ball Eaglehead be considered a spadroon?

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim,


Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Manolo,

Originally Posted by celtan

Would a 7-ball Eaglehead be considered a spadroon?

This is what Castle had to say on the Spadroon:

The back sword, of which so much is heard in connection with gladiators stage fights, had a basket hilt similar to that of the Claymore, but a very much slenderer blade, deprived of point, like the modern Schlaeger.

A cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard, approximating to that of the small sword, was called "Spadroon" in England; It was in fact, similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the eighteenth century, which had been called Spadone or Spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the Claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon. The Germans Spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any very light back or shearing sword was so called in England. Its play was essentially that of our modern single-stick (CE: Circa 1890), with a free use of the point, and the addition of a few drawing cuts with the false edge.


By way of an explanation, I should add that the Claymore was originally a large Scottish medieval two handed sword and later its name was given to the basket hilted swords that nowadays we associate with that country.

Some have considered the Spadroon as the precursor of the light Italian dueling sabre.

Cheers
Chris

[David]

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

[celtan]

Thanks Guys, got my answer!

Now, if I only could discover what was the significance of a 7 ball, as compared with a 5 or 3 ball hilt...

Best Regards

Manolo

Originally Posted by David

I hate to be so pedestrian, but there is even a Wiki on this sword form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spadroon

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys! Kisak, when you say get the ball rollin' .....you really mean 'rollin' ! You are exactly spot on in noting these as infantry swords, and specifically for officers.
Fernando thank you for the work on the etymology, and as you note, it is often hard to determine actual meanings or intentions in changing parlance and context. As we have learned, often terms become used colloquially in a sense, which is truly a confounding circumstance for the weapons historian.

Although I know there are certainly references on these swords online, and I have done research on them some time ago (again notes not at hand), I wanted to initiate a discussion here in which we could all participate. This is something I could not have experienced in my earlier research days B.C. (= before computer

Actually the material typically found online is indeed often somewhat 'pedestrian' compared to more specialized reference, it does serve well as a benchmark.
Clearly the joining of well versed international forces here will far exceed that benchmark, and hopefully we can establish more compehensive material.
Again, this is what I believe we are here for.

Nicely done on the Castle reference Chris, thank you! It seems you are extremely well versed in fencing, are you a fencer yourself? I noticed your reference to Angelo in addition to the Castle work.

Celtan, you are right on it! The seven ball eaglehead, good question, and since it is an American piece, whether these, or the French multiple ball hilts were also called spadroons is an excellent question.

I am thinking that the term spadroon may have possibly been in kind of a allusion toward fencing and smallswords, as might have been the case with military officers, who were of course gentry and often nobility in varying status. Since this was in a time of elevated neoclassicism evidenced in sword decoration (these swords actually were the British pattern 1786 infantry officers, as shown in Robson , 'Swords of the British Army' p.107) perhaps these were intended as a more fashionable style of smallsword intended for military use?

I am not sure if the term 'spadroon' followed as these became popular in France, and subsequently the U.S. nor the meaning or significance of the number of beads or balls in the hilt decoration. These things are what I hope to discover as we move on.

All best regards,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nicely done on the Castle reference Chris, thank you!

And thanks to you too for your kind words and initiating this thread.

It seems you are extremely well versed in fencing, are you a fencer yourself? I noticed your reference to Angelo in addition to the Castle work.

Not really, though I did learn a bit of the military sabre-sword, as used by infantry, in my teen years, but that was using wands and doing only the basic moves over and over plus some extremely simple pre-arranged exchanges with a partner. No safety gear of any kind and rough or free play was forbidden. Boring and simple stuff at best. However, ever since then I have had a life long armchair fascination with swordplay.

BTW. A bit more information on Spadroons from E.D.Morton:

"...... It was slightly adapted, by the British Army, for use as the standard infantry officer's sword, but proving grossly inefficient in the Peninsular War (1808-14), became the subject of many complaints."

I also had a very hasty look in Norman's and whilst he devotes some space to this weapon, I could not find an answer to the perplexing numbers of balls on the knuckle guards and their curatorial significance.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

My pleasure Chris. I experienced a liitle fencing also, it seems several lifetimes ago, and with the sabre as well. We did use the mask and gear, but one learned quickly as those stiff blades really hurt on a good hit, one on the side of the mask would rattle your head pretty good! Not sure if that was supposed to happen, but it sure did.

I finally dragged out my trusty Robson (not an easy task finding it in this bookmobile) and found that these infantry swords were indeed not too well thought of. On p.107 Robson notes that the M1786 hilts were flimsy wigh minimal hand protection, despite its intent for a fighting weapon with potential for cut and thrust.

It noted that prior to 1786, the symbol of authority for infantry officers was the staff weapon known as the 'spontoon'. I wonder if the term for the sword introduced to replace this might have somehow inspired the term 'spadroon', which was apparantly already in the parlance of swordplay and the fashionable smallsword?

Robson notes further that the outbreak of war with France in 1793 and further displeasure with these hilts may have led to a new style hilt in 1796, which was similar to the smallsword with the double shell guard, and using the same style blade.

With your quotation from Morton concerning the complaints on these infantry swords, which at this point must have been the shellguard pattern 1796, Robson cites another;
"...nothing could be more useless or more ridiculous than the old infantry regulation sword, it was good for neither cut nor thrust and was a perfect encumbrance".
Gen. Cavalie Mercer, remininscing about Royal
Artillery at turn of the 18th century.

It remains unclear whether the spadroon term continued to be used referring to the subsequent pattern 1796. Robson does note that the five ball hilt did become popular with English naval officers c.1790, and that the French adopted the form for naval and dragoon officers c.1800 (described as a'la anglaise= in the English style). The U.S. adopted the pattern about 1812, and seems typically associated with 'Federal Period' eagleheads.

Nick Norman was a brilliant scholar, and his book is an amazing reference using actual art and portraiture to date hilt forms. I was truly surprised that there was no attention given to this curious feature, but given the monumental undertaking of this work I suppose it would have been extremely difficult to attend to such a detail. As I have mentioned, it would seem that the only arms scholar who seems to have considered this hilt feature a curiosity or anomaly was May.....until us

All very best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Manolo,

Originally Posted by fernando

Isn't it derived from the Genevan Espadron ... coming from the Italian Espadone ... or French Espadon ... or Portuguese Espadão ? .
In current portuguese connotation it means large sword; i wouldn't presently know what it meant in that period and context, though.
Fernando

Originally Posted by celtan

Espadon would be Spanish, literally big sword. In French, a espada would be a epee. A big epee...?

I kmow this is not the right tempo, but only now i take notice of your observation on my trying to establish the ethimology of spadroon (a point also raised in this thread by Jim).
The thing is that, besides being spanish, 'espadon' is also french ... meaning a great (two handed) sword; hence 'espadonier' is fencing with a great sword.
Obviously the context of such typologies 'shrunk' a bit for the spadroon attribution .
Best wishes, my amigo.
Feenando

[fernando]

To tell the true, i wouldn't know what a spadroon would be called in Portuguese sword typology.
This picture represents what is called a military sword from the period of King Dom José. I seem to notice that it has some resemblance with the usually illustrated spadroons. A very fine example, with a silver hilt and an ivory grip, with silver filets. The blade is single edged by three quarters and double in the last section, with the legend VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. The text also mentions that, swords of this type, were also used in the (Portuguese) Navy.
Its age is estimated around 1775-1800.
Now, would somebody tell me if this example is far from being what is considered a spadroon?
Fernando

.

[celtan]

The word espadon is still used in Spain, but now it refers to a large digging spade.

Nando, I believe your example fully fits the bill for a spadroon.

Beautiful weapon

Best

M

[Dmitry]

Hello, gentlemen.

We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways -
HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard
or
BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge

Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello, gentlemen.

We might want to define the spadroon in 2 ways -
HILT - D-shaped with or without the beaded balls on the guard
or
BLADE - narrow, straight, with a cutting edge

Which way would you like to go - blade or hilt?

Hi Dmitry,
Welcome aboard!!!!! I'm really glad to have you with us!!!


Good points on the definition of the term 'spadroon' , and it is so true that terminology is often the bane of typologists with the classification of weapons. With that, I'd like to add some of my thoughts to date that the readership might find interesting.

In the study of ethnographic weapons, as an example, the swords of India carry the conundrum of the terms tulwar vs. shamshir. Is a sword with a tulwar style Indo-Persian hilt (with disc pommel) mounted with a Persian blade a shamshir, by the blade?, or tulwar ?( by definition an Indian word for 'sword', but by application construed as the familiar Indian sabre).

I have seen Persian shamshirs, which of course found great favor in Mughal courts, classified among Indian weapons as tulwars.

While on the subject of shamshirs, the topic of terminology brings up the very exotic term 'scimitar', which in my opinion is more of a linguistic term used in romanticized literature to describe curved Eastern sabres. The word itself is generally held to have been a transliterated version of the word 'shamshir' arrived at through a 'perfect storm' of translations in several interlinguistic exchanges.

Personally, I am seriously wondering if the term 'spadroon' was simply a fashionable allusion to the described move in Italian fencing, and applied by those hoping to suggest cut and thrust associations recalling those of the smallsword. It seems clear that the intent was to add a certain 'elegance' of station to these military swords for infantry officers in a time when the neoclassic theme was rapidly becoming popular.
Until the introduction of the infantry officers sword was introduced in 1786, I have understood that the polearm known as the 'spontoon' was symbolic of that rank, though in the Revolutionary War proved patently absurd in the styles of combat that became known in actions there.
Perhaps the 'oon' suffix added to the fashionable 'espadon' terms from the Italian term? although admittedly simplistic, might explain what was probably a colloquial application initially.

Returning to the neoclassic associations described in these times and these swords, the British M1796 was also a blade of this type, with a hilt clearly recalling the gentlemans smallsword, with shellguards and a classical pommel. It is unclear whether these swords following the seemingly soundly classified 'spadroons' of the M1786, now with the type having moved into naval swords and across the continent, were also termed 'spadroons'.
It would seem that the term was applied to them occasionally, but not nearly with the consistancy and conviction well established with the five ball hilt form.
In France, the examples with numeric ball motif were simply termed with reference to 'in English style', and I do not believe the examples that began use in the Federal period in the U.S. were referred to as 'spadroons'. The British naval examples I think did receive the appellation in degree, but not universally, and again, recalling the original infantry use.

It seems that by blade definition, these would simply be 'backswords'...but then there is yet another quite profoundly debated issue over the term 'broadsword' and 'backsword'....as in those times in certain instances, the broadsword term was applied to single edge swords. Perhaps this might have brought the detour, at least at that time, to spadroon rather than having this new type sword fall into that fray?

All of these thoughts are presented simply as open observations that may or may not be considered possible explanations for this intriguing term for these swords.

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Just to add to the "ooning." Wasn't the blunderbuss also called a "musketoon" (link), especially when it was associated with naval use? I wonder if the "oon" suffix might not just be for something diminutive, but also something that was used on ships? That doesn't sound quite true for the spontoon, but still...

Just a thought,

F