Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

... seems to be Timurid Persian , I see Mongol and I see Persian in it, I also think it goes 18th century and beyond.

Is that the Timurid/Mongol I saw on it ? It had mainly to do with shape , I paid no detail attention to the chainmail, just considered is there. The conical spiked helmet, not domed nor fluted nor tear shaped and the "yin-yang" like mystical symbol pointed more than anything towards that consideration .
Why so early (18th century and beyond ) is because vaguely I recall similar shaped Mongolic (hence Tartar...) helmets anywhehre between 15th and beggining of 18th century, in Timurid & Safavid Persia or Mughul Empire.
The best source to see this helmets would be Indo-Persian miniatures and I will try to find some representative ones... Does anyone own ilustrations from the Tarikh-i-Khandana-i-Timuria manuscript or similar, that might help me spot some light on my theory !
I will not opose at all to the very late theory (19th century) but I am trying my luck to research to push it further as I "have a feeling" (there you go, I said it !!!) its earliear but please consider that I am not considering the chainmail for the moment...
How about the inscription, anyone dare ?

[wolviex]

Thanks to our friend BI, who send me a few scans from mentioned book by mr Gutowski, I can post a few facts in here.

First of all, the inscription, which is visible on the helmet, is not deciphered yet - but, on one of the round field we can see a date "1219" which is 1804 year in Europe (not visible on my pics). That, I think, should convince us all it is 18/19th century piece, as I and Jens have guessed before.

About Tartar's helmet. Again thanks to BI, there is a wide explanation about evolution of these helmets in Mr Gutowski's book. Let me quote for you few sentences:


Jacek Gutowski, Uzbrojenie Tatarow, T. I, Warszawa 1997:

"(...) From the Middle Ages to the 17th cent. the Tartars always used helmets identical in terms of function. They were constructed of somewhat shallow skull-caps, protecting the upper part of the head and flaps protecting the back of and sides of the neck and cheeks. (...) From the end of the 15th cent., due to Caucasian-Turkish influences, the misiurka began to be used - a type of helmet with the skull-cap reduced to a slightly vaulted plate. Misiurka was the most commonly-used helmets of the end of the 16th - end of the 18th cent. Other types did not however disappear entirely. In luxury, richly-decorated helmets, skull caps of early conical and spherical-conical forms appear as late as the end of the 17th cent. In anachronic helmets from the north Caucasus they lasted even to the end of the 18th cent [here is the reference to helmet shown here, then author is describing the way of dating helmets and their ornaments]"

Regards to BI!

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by wolviex

About Tartar's helmet. Again thanks to BI, there is a wide explanation about evolution of these helmets in Mr Gutowski's book. Let me quote for you few sentences:


Jacek Gutowski, Uzbrojenie Tatarow, T. I, Warszawa 1997:

"(...) From the Middle Ages to the 17th cent. the Tartars always used helmets identical in terms of function. They were constructed of somewhat shallow skull-caps, protecting the upper part of the head and flaps protecting the back of and sides of the neck and cheeks. (...) From the end of the 15th cent., due to Caucasian-Turkish influences, the misiurka began to be used - a type of helmet with the skull-cap reduced to a slightly vaulted plate. Misiurka was the most commonly-used helmets of the end of the 16th - end of the 18th cent. Other types did not however disappear entirely. In luxury, richly-decorated helmets, skull caps of early conical and spherical-conical forms appear as late as the end of the 17th cent. In anachronic helmets from the north Caucasus they lasted even to the end of the 18th cent [here is the reference to helmet shown here, then author is describing the way of dating helmets and their ornaments]"

I don't really know anything about armor, but:

1. To me it looks like a northern caucasian helmet - AStvatsaturjan 104p. shows fully armored Circassian (year 1830).
2. "Tatar" would suggest Nogai or Kumyk nations, however:
3. Three curling something is one of the most popular Osethian symbols. Kumyks have something similar, but their three curling something usually has animals - hypogryths and so on.

So - is it Osethian ?