Naga keris - original?

[Henk]

The way of heavily etching, yes, but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, if by "recent" you mean a keris that has been produced within the last 120 years or so, I agree with you.

However, this keris does not bear the indicators of one that has been made since, say, 1975.

Current keris production is limited to rather specific areas, and has rather specific styles, which are pretty easy to recognise once you've seen enough of them.

This blade does not bear any of those indicators.

To my eye, this is a blade that has been produced after, say, 1880, it is quite low quality, and it lacks any artistic refinement. The 1880 date is very much a ballpark figure, but it is not a blade from any of the current sources of production.

[Henk]

Alan,

As always you are a well of inspiration.

In my opinion the keris is much younger than 1975. I based my opinion mainly on the thick sturdy pesi, hardly untouched by time. Also the cruel naga did strengthen my opinion of very recent manufacture.

Maybe you are able to enlighten us, and tell us something more about the specific styles. Illustrated with some pictures.
As always I'm gladly willing to learn and I'm sure other forummembers will be very happy receiving your lessons.

Here in Holland some large collectors will classify this type of keris as recent manufacture. Based on that knowledge from those collectors I made my statement.

[asomotif]

Could the naga be of later date ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk,

Firstly I would like to break the last 100 years into smaller bite sized lumps, and I am only going to talk about Central Jawa, East Jawa, and Madura, which is in fact a part of East Jawa.

Up until the time the Japanese occupied Indonesia there was still keris making going on. Some very high quality blades were produced in the Karatons of Central Jawa, and keris of a much lower quality were being made in East Jawa and Madura.

These East Jawa and Madura keris were stiff in their form, they nearly always used simple mlumah pamor, if they were picture keris --- ie, with nagas or whatever --- those pictures were pretty crude and often evidence of modern technolgy was there to be seen, such as drilled rather than punched holes.

With the Japanese occupation keris manufacture stopped, and there was no keris manufacture again until perhaps the 1950's, but what did take place during the 1950's and 1960's was only very, very limited, and not widespread.

During the 1970's interest in the keris began to arise again, and in the mid-1970's Dietrich Drescher became instrumental in the resurgence of keris manufacture in Jogja --- we all know this story.

However, prior to this there was at least one man in Jogja who was producing forgeries for the keris trade, and he stayed in business doing this until around 1990.He altered old keris, but he also made new keris and artificially aged them.

After keris manufacture had begun again in Jogja, it became evident in Solo, the keris school was established in the ASKI, then the Madura keris makers decided to get serious and upgrade their operations.Keris production in Madura had never really stopped. It is now often claimed that they only began to make keris after the resurgence in Central Jawa, but this is incorrect. After the resurgence in Central Jawa they modernised and a younger generation recognised a business opportunity, however, relatives of my wife had obtained keris sourced from these Madura makers in the period from the mid - 1920's through to the 1960's.

When the new generation of Madura makers began, their product was pretty ugly, and did not really conform to Central Javanese standards for keris, however there has been consistent improvement in the Madura product, and people from this group now produce perhaps some of the finest keris ever made.

The above is only a brief over-view. I have not attempted to cover all of the minor manufacturing areas, however, any minor operations can be linked to these two major schools of Central Jawa and East Jawa.

To return to the keris in question.

This keris is not in a style that can be associated with the school of Central Jawa, nor the school of East Jawa/Madura in the period 1980 to the present.

In other words it was not made later than 1980.

In some respects it does resemble keris that can be associated with the East Jawa/Madura product of 1920's to 1960's.

The indicators are the stiff pawakan, the flat gonjo, the method of naga sculpture, the pamor style, the luk style.

The pesi is most definitely not "thick and sturdy". This is a weak, poorly formed pesi and has bad proportions. It is very irregular in form demonsrating lack of care in manufacture, probably also the removal of rust.

Henk, you cannot use the degree of corrosion on a pesi as an indicator of age. Sometimes in a poorly maintained keris a pesi will completely erode over a 100 year period, on the other hand, a well maintained keris may show no erosion at all over a period of several hundred years. I have a 18th century keris that went to Holland prior to 1800, and the pesi on this keris is as if it came off the bench yesterday. I have a tombak by Jayasukadgo that has a pesi that looks brand new. The pesi is a valuable indicator when appraising a blade, but it can only assist in an assessment of age under very limited circumstances.

As for photos.

Photographs use a lot of time. I first need to find suitable examples amongst those keris that I am prepared to allow to be viewed; then I need to prepare them to be photographed; then I need to photograph them; then I need to process the photos; then I need to publish them either here or in my site. What you are talking about is probably 3 to 5 days work. Quite simply I am not prepared to do that work, because it takes me away from work that produces income.Something like this post I can write in perhaps 20-30 minutes, but photos are a major committment of time.

Additionally, I have no stake in whether what I write is accepted or not. I've told you what I believe to be true, it is of absolutely no consequence to me if you accept it or not.However, what I have written is backed up by over 50 years of experience, which includes the handling of literally thousands of blades every year for the last 20 years at least. Accept or reject:- up to you.

The question as to whether the naga might have been added to the blade cannot be answered from a photo. It is an outside possibility, but it would be necessary to handle the blade in order to support an opinion.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I remember seeing blades with similar ugly pamor, in Sumatran style, and of quite recent production. I'm not sure I cared to archive pics but will have a look...

These East Jawa and Madura keris were stiff in their form, they nearly always used simple mlumah pamor, if they were picture keris --- ie, with nagas or whatever --- those pictures were pretty crude and often evidence of modern technolgy was there to be seen, such as drilled rather than punched holes.

In some respects it does resemble keris that can be associated with the East Jawa/Madura product of 1920's to 1960's.

The indicators are the stiff pawakan, the flat gonjo, the method of naga sculpture, the pamor style, the luk style.

Thanks a lot for your detailed info! This certainly makes more sense in light of the Madurese fittings.

Does such crude/ugly pamor also pop up from other areas like central Jawa or Sunda?

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I have not yet seen this type of pamor in a recent keris that originated in Central Jawa, when I see this type of pamor my first thought is always East Jawa/Madura, and prior to about 1980.

I know of no unique keris manufacturing being carried out in Sunda. There is considerable blade manufacturing done in the Bandung area, but to my knowledge not keris. Jakarta work is a part of the two major schools.

I believe a close investigation of the other areas you mention might reveal that insofar as blades are concerned you are looking at distribution centers for East Jawa production, and in any case, this is a fairly new phenomenon, I believe. Going back ten or fifteen years I did not see anything much except older pieces coming out of those areas in Sumatra. Regarding Peninsula production, I have no personal knowledge, but I have had blades referred to me by people in Malaysia who told me that they were the product of Malaysian makers, however, as far as I am concerned, those blades originated in Sumenep.

It is most definitely not correct to brand every keris of less than good quality as a "keris-like-object".

Keris have been made in Jawa for no other purpose than as items of dress since at least the beginning of the 19th century. Are these keris like objects? Of course not, and no sane person would say they were.

Keris being made now are made as either works of art, collectables, or as items of dress. Are these keris like objects?

I noticed another thread just posted within the last hour or so. There you can see a KLO.

The keris that is under discussion here is in no way, shape or form a KLO.

It is a low quality keris that was probably produced for the local market as an item of dress.

Most keris production of the current era has been for local consumption. People still need a keris to complete formal dress, and low quality keris are produced for this reason.

The volume of sales to tourists and outside the local market is minimal.

This whole idea of "the tourist market" is so far from reality as to be absurd. The things that get sold to tourists in the major tourist areas of Jawa and Bali are for the most part genuine keris dressed to accomodate a bule's taste and pocket.Occasionally you will find a horror with batik pamor on a flat iron blade, but I haven't noticed any of this garbage in maybe 20 years.

[kai]

Hello Erik,

How well does the blade fit to the Madura scabbard?

I'm tempted to agree with Henk's assessment that this blade is possibly a recent keris-like object (KLO) either produced for those travelling for pleasure or maybe as cheap props for wedding ceremonies. AFAIK there are quite a few current centers/smiths throughout Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula and most also cater to the tourist market. The Medan area seems to be a good example with bladesmiths as well as silverworking and carving specialists getting better at imitating genuine pieces aiming at the serious collector market; low-end KLOs keep being mass-produced for tourists, too. Other areas also produce tourist pieces with qualities ranging from decent to abysmal; usually, tools (fieldwork, kitchen, etc.) as well as genuine ethnographic pieces (often of village quality) are also offered for the local market - these seem to quite rarely find their way into the western world though. Then there are Indonesian smiths catering to the global market for utility blades, ethnographic repros, custom knifes, and fantasy blades...

Regards,
Kai

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Henk

... but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

If you ask Maduran people, what Maduran keris they like much -- then one almost certain answer would be "Kasa kerises"... They mean, kerises which were made by Empu Kasa, or at least have characteristics of Kasa's keris. For Sumenep people, they like Sumala or Panembahan Sumolo kerises...

IMHO, Kasa's characteristics mostly: "ngulit semangka" pamor with extreme layers (erik's keris has such pamor), and sturdy pesi (I post three of around five old Maduran kerises I have, with such sturdy pesi), and if keris with luks, Kasa's style usually have complete janggut-jenggot (above the sekar kacang) and complete greneng -- with ron dha nunut or double greneng...

Erik's keris has characteristics of what Maduran people say, Kasa's keris. Old. But the question is the proportion of the gandhik with naga relief. Not quite proportional with the size of the overall blade.


GANJAWULUNG

[Rick]

Yes, I would agree with that .

An old altered keris then ?

Or ... ??

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes, I would agree with that .

An old altered keris then ?

Or ... ??

Probably yes, Rick. An old altered keris. You may look at the "sudden hollow" behind the garuda mungkur of the "naga raja" head... Not so smooth hollow, unnatural. (Below are just for comparison, the proportion of naga relief. It is not an old naga, but the proportion is ok). The distance of the naga head at erik's keris, is too short to the upper part of ganja, or the base of keris. Please, this is only my humble opinion...

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

. You may look at the "sudden hollow" behind the garuda mungkur of the "naga raja" head... Not so smooth hollow, unnatural. (Below are just for comparison, the proportion of naga relief. It is not an old naga, but the proportion is ok). The distance of the naga head at erik's keris, is too short to the upper part of ganja, or the base of keris.

Yes, but is this proper proportion which Erik's keris lacks to be found necessarily in a village made keris where the pandai might not be as skilled or knowledgeable.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, but is this proper proportion which Erik's keris lacks to be found necessarily in a village made keris where the pandai might not be as skilled or knowledgeable.

Dear David, I think sense of good proportion is universal language for every keris maker. It is not a matter of village or not-village pandai keris. And in the past, I think good empus were villagers too. Most javanese people in the past were villagers...

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear David, I think sense of good proportion is universal language for every keris maker. It is not a matter of village or not-village pandai keris. And in the past, I think good empus were villagers too. Most javanese people in the past were villagers...

My dear Ganja, i was not implying that there have not been some very, very good village pandai. I have many examples of their fine work in my own collection. However it should also be clear from old examples that there have been many mediocre and even bad pandai making keris. I am afraid that i cannot agree that a good sense of proportion is a universal skill of ALL keris makers. There are just too many bad keris to be found to back that statement up.