Cirebon hilt?

tuancd · 1st May 2005, 08:01 PM

Thanks
never noticed the kneeling position. I'll come back on that later. (I'm travelling at the moment and have no way to get to my pics. The knee up and pending leg is a royal position of ease called Rajalila asana (not as usually mentioned lila asana where the leg is not pending from the throne but resting on it). The interesting sign made by the hands and that you are talking about is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits. For the standing position or "asana" a common one is one leg bent and one straight which is the Alidha/pratyalidha expressing aggressive attitude of the character.
I'll come back on all of that next week when I'm back in france
Thanks for the nice pics and for sharing your knowledge
Cedric

BluErf · 2nd May 2005, 12:34 AM

Tuan Cedric, thanks for sharing your knowledge too. I have been wanting to find out the significance of the hand signs and the postures for a long time.

I await your next post eagerly.

By the way, is the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position expressed in keris hilts? So far, I have only noticed the Rajalila asana position where one knee is up, the other leg down from the throne. Thanks much!

nechesh · 2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM

Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn.

But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

tuancd · 12th May 2005, 07:05 PM

Hi!
I'm back in Europe
about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure.

BluErf · 15th May 2005, 01:14 PM

Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia?

Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html

tuancd · 15th May 2005, 04:51 PM

As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration.
Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.

BluErf · 16th May 2005, 01:51 PM

Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing.

12th May 2005, 07:05 PM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi! I'm back in Europe about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure. Attached Images

15th May 2005, 01:14 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia? Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html Attached Images

16th May 2005, 01:51 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing. Attached Images

1st May 2005, 08:01 PM	#1
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Thanks never noticed the kneeling position. I'll come back on that later. (I'm travelling at the moment and have no way to get to my pics. The knee up and pending leg is a royal position of ease called Rajalila asana (not as usually mentioned lila asana where the leg is not pending from the throne but resting on it). The interesting sign made by the hands and that you are talking about is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits. For the standing position or "asana" a common one is one leg bent and one straight which is the Alidha/pratyalidha expressing aggressive attitude of the character. I'll come back on all of that next week when I'm back in france Thanks for the nice pics and for sharing your knowledge Cedric

2nd May 2005, 12:34 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Tuan Cedric, thanks for sharing your knowledge too. I have been wanting to find out the significance of the hand signs and the postures for a long time. I await your next post eagerly. By the way, is the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position expressed in keris hilts? So far, I have only noticed the Rajalila asana position where one knee is up, the other leg down from the throne. Thanks much!

2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn. But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

15th May 2005, 04:51 PM	#6
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration. Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.