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Emanuel · 10th June 2009, 10:51 PM

I'm no smith yet (trying though) but as I understand it, high altitude is only a problem when you're dealing with athmospheric/venturi gas burners which require a certain athmospheric pressure to ensure an adequate fuel mix.

The rareified athmosphere could perhaps pose a problem to combustion, but only at very high altitudes. Assuming a simple forge with hide bellows, I don't think people would have problem smelting at high altitudes. Material availability is of greater concern I think. Mining ore in a low-oxygen environment sounds particualrly difficult.

Then again, why talk of high altitudes? How many urban/production centres were high up in the mountains (Machu Pichu, yes, but others?). Very many cities were far lower down, despite being in the Andes.

Thoughts...
Emanuel

fearn · 10th June 2009, 10:58 PM

Hi Manolo,

Most of the good land (and most of the population) in the central Andes is between 10,000 and 50,000 ft (crudely, 3300 and 5000 m). Most of the modern, low elevation cities were founded by Spaniards, in part because they couldn't tolerate the high elevations, especially women trying to have children. At low elevations on the Pacific coast, there isn't a lot of water outside the tropics, so arable land and townsites are fairly limited.

That's why I was asking about high altitude smithing. It's one of those things no one talks about, and I don't know whether it's because it's a non-issue, or because so few blacksmiths work at high elevation that it's not really thought about. Otherwise, iron ore is fairly plentiful in the Andes, so raw material wasn't an issue.

F

Tim Simmons · 11th June 2009, 06:03 PM

I am just fascinated by the hole thing of metalwork in the Americas. Relics are there to show that it was pan American. Could the PNW have been the first to produce iron? Archeaologists suggest that the ancient British bronze age and iron ages were not seperate events. It seems obvious that a merging would occur. Stone, bronze and iron being used for a period of time while wealth, location, materials and trade made certian materials obsolete. A lot may have depended on the job and size of the tool.

fearn · 11th June 2009, 08:10 PM

Hi Tim,

The only archeologically supported iron working in the Americas prior to 1491 (and ignoring the Norse!) was the iron used by the Greenland eskimos from the Cape York meteorite, going back ~1000 years. That was essentially modified stone-working, not forging. I suspect the material was traded fairly widely in the Arctic, simply because they traded chert and other tool stones as well. Otherwise, blacksmithing was brought in by the Europeans.

I don't know of any evidence for any North American bronze smithing, either. Most of the metal work seems to have been confined to the Andes, with gold working reaching up into Mexico (the Aztecs).

Best,

F

10th June 2009, 10:51 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I'm no smith yet (trying though) but as I understand it, high altitude is only a problem when you're dealing with athmospheric/venturi gas burners which require a certain athmospheric pressure to ensure an adequate fuel mix. The rareified athmosphere could perhaps pose a problem to combustion, but only at very high altitudes. Assuming a simple forge with hide bellows, I don't think people would have problem smelting at high altitudes. Material availability is of greater concern I think. Mining ore in a low-oxygen environment sounds particualrly difficult. Then again, why talk of high altitudes? How many urban/production centres were high up in the mountains (Machu Pichu, yes, but others?). Very many cities were far lower down, despite being in the Andes. Thoughts... Emanuel

10th June 2009, 10:58 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Manolo, Most of the good land (and most of the population) in the central Andes is between 10,000 and 50,000 ft (crudely, 3300 and 5000 m). Most of the modern, low elevation cities were founded by Spaniards, in part because they couldn't tolerate the high elevations, especially women trying to have children. At low elevations on the Pacific coast, there isn't a lot of water outside the tropics, so arable land and townsites are fairly limited. That's why I was asking about high altitude smithing. It's one of those things no one talks about, and I don't know whether it's because it's a non-issue, or because so few blacksmiths work at high elevation that it's not really thought about. Otherwise, iron ore is fairly plentiful in the Andes, so raw material wasn't an issue. F

11th June 2009, 06:03 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I am just fascinated by the hole thing of metalwork in the Americas. Relics are there to show that it was pan American. Could the PNW have been the first to produce iron? Archeaologists suggest that the ancient British bronze age and iron ages were not seperate events. It seems obvious that a merging would occur. Stone, bronze and iron being used for a period of time while wealth, location, materials and trade made certian materials obsolete. A lot may have depended on the job and size of the tool.

11th June 2009, 08:10 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, The only archeologically supported iron working in the Americas prior to 1491 (and ignoring the Norse!) was the iron used by the Greenland eskimos from the Cape York meteorite, going back ~1000 years. That was essentially modified stone-working, not forging. I suspect the material was traded fairly widely in the Arctic, simply because they traded chert and other tool stones as well. Otherwise, blacksmithing was brought in by the Europeans. I don't know of any evidence for any North American bronze smithing, either. Most of the metal work seems to have been confined to the Andes, with gold working reaching up into Mexico (the Aztecs). Best, F