Bombardier stilettos

[fearn]

I agree with all this. One thing I'm wondering is whether these knives were also used to measure off fuse lengths.

F

[katana]

I have a problem believing the stilleto would be any use if a 'gun' enplacement was 'over-run'. Cannons would be a strategic target....and its 'capture' would add to your fire power against the enemy.

Thinking 'laterally' I wonder if the stilleto had another use.....if you quenched the blade ...without tempering it, the blade would be very hard...but brittle. Still functional as a stabbing weapon but could be used to incapacitate a cannon.... Your position is over-run, the enemy are about to capture your guns ...you stick the stilleto in the fuse hole (perhaps even 'hammer it in ) hardened steel would 'bite' into the softer iron,....grab the hilt and snap the (brittle) blade ...which would likely snap 'flush' with the cannons outer surface. This would be very difficult to remove, especially in 'battle' conditions.
Voila...a cannon without a useable fuse hole ......a cannon that cannot be 'turned' on your comrades..

Regards David

PS the 'graduation' marks ...if deep enough ....would make good 'snapping' points

[Matchlock]

With about all having been said and considered, I am afraid that I will not be able to contribute substantially. Artillery is just not sufficiently covered by my expertise but I finally did manage to find some more illustrations.

Unfortunately they cannot shed new light either on the discussion whether the numeric scales on gunners' stilettoes etc. refer to caliber or cannon adjustment. Literature seems to be very vague on these issues. About all I could find seems to prove that Jim is absolutely right in postulating an Italian provenance for gunners' stilettoes in general.

The caption to the stiletto below just notes 'stiletto with artillery scale, Venice, ca. 1670'.

I add some original illustrative sources on the use of artillery quadrants and other measuring methods, though.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A combined fighting axe and artillery quadrant made for Duke Julius of Brunswick in about 1585, and a combined gunner's calipers and dagger, Italian, ca. 1630.

m

[Matchlock]

Some historic sources of illustration, ca. 1560 to late 17th c.

m

[Matchlock]

Adjusting a cannon for firing stone balls of varying weight, 16th c.

m

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michael,
Once again you amaze me at your ability to find exactly what supporting medieval art, iconography, museum pieces or catalogued items are needed for the topic at hand!
The combination axe and gunners quadrant of c.1585 is what I was looking for, what type of weapon/instrument devices might have led up to the application of numeric scales on these stilettos.
It would seem that the geometric computation of trajectory was a key focus in the instruments used prior to the mid 17th century appearance of these gunners stilettos, and I had wondered why these did not have the caliper feature in addition to the numeric scales.

It would seem that as we have agreed, there is little at all published on these esoteric weapons. The only reference I could find was an article apparantly published in 1931 by Sir James Mann. Finding this I thought that perhaps, since he catalogued the Wallace Collection in 1962, there might be notes there. I was right, there are three of these catalogued, all Italian, all c.1650.
In this he cites an Italian reference for bombardiers from Brescia in 1571, which states the scale was for converting the measurement of the diameter of the bore of a gun to corresponding weight of shot.
The reference does not state the scale was used on a stiletto, only that the graduation corresponds to the scale noted in 1571.

Since it seems that weapons and instruments, both important to the gunners, were in some degree combined, with the axe from 1585 in Brunswick. Also that in Italy by c.1630, a stiletto that opened into calipers was known. Naturally calipers may have been used in other calculation such as architecture, navigation etc. byt clearly artillery as well. Therefore it would seem a natural progression for the numeric scale to be added to the distinctly predominant Italian stiletto.

I suppose the numeric scale circumventing the 'stiletto control' law is reminiscent of many instances where insidious weapons are concealed in various items. There are of course the sword canes, and the well known 'jackknife' which developed from the navaja with folded blade which did not fall into the rigid blade laws forbidding ordinary civilians from carrying swords.

Perhaps these stilettos ceased being used for measuring powder at least, with the premeasured powder containers that preceded cartridges?

All the best Michael, and thank you so much!!!!
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by katana

Thinking 'laterally' I wonder if the stilleto had another use.....if you quenched the blade ...without tempering it, the blade would be very hard...but brittle. Still functional as a stabbing weapon but could be used to incapacitate a cannon.... Your position is over-run, the enemy are about to capture your guns ...you stick the stilleto in the fuse hole (perhaps even 'hammer it in ) hardened steel would 'bite' into the softer iron,....grab the hilt and snap the (brittle) blade ...which would likely snap 'flush' with the cannons outer surface. This would be very difficult to remove, especially in 'battle' conditions.
Voila...a cannon without a useable fuse hole ......a cannon that cannot be 'turned' on your comrades..

Regards David

PS the 'graduation' marks ...if deep enough ....would make good 'snapping' points

Hi
It seems 'plugging' the touch hole was a common procedure when necessary. I still think that the stilleto, carried by the gunners, would be quickly and easily accessible and if the 'point' thin enough would make an ideal spike.

".....When a cannon had to be abandoned such as in a retreat or surrender, the touch hole of the cannon would be plugged flush with a iron spike, disabling the cannon (at least until metal boring tools could be used to remove the plug). This was called "spiking the cannon"...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi
It seems 'plugging' the touch hole was a common procedure when necessary. I still think that the stilleto, carried by the gunners, would be quickly and easily accessible and if the 'point' thin enough would make an ideal spike.

".....When a cannon had to be abandoned such as in a retreat or surrender, the touch hole of the cannon would be plugged flush with a iron spike, disabling the cannon (at least until metal boring tools could be used to remove the plug). This was called "spiking the cannon"...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon




Regards David

This is a very interesting aspect of artillery, and as I have noted before, not having great familiarity with this topic, had not really 'struck home' as it were.

In rethinking the plausibility of these actually quite attractive and fascinating daggers being sacrificed to this clearly basic necessity, I returned to the original article to recheck the note on this. Terenzi does state that these 'fusetto' were likely used, if such be the case, to foul the touchhole as described.

It is noted as well that the author was 'uncomfortable' with the position that these gunners stilettos were exclusive to the artillerymen of Venice, though it was well known that the Venetian 'fire mouths' were the best organized and proficient in the world. With this, it seems odd that only 6 examples of these exist in Venetian museums.
With this apparantly well established elitism, Angelucci (Turin, 1890, cited by Terenzi) accepted the thesis that these daggers were issued to Venetian cannoneers as 'badges of corps' without any function as either tools or weapons. He suggested further (and questionably) that the scales were applied without order or meaning. This presumption seems well disproven, but is included here as worthy of note.

It would seem to me that with the Venetian artillery, an elite corps considered the best organized in the world of the time, would have a 'tapered steel pin' fashioned as a round device specifically for this reluctant but necessary action. Surely, one of these gunners would not sacrifice what seem to be rather valued weapons in this manner, except as a last resort. The practice of 'spiking' cannon, or otherwise disabling them, seems well known as a standard military practice throughout the history of these weapons. With this being the case, certainly such spikes must have been part of the accoutrements accompanying the gun crews, and I wonder if such items exist among the holdings of old artillery miscellania.

I am inclined to think that a weapon such as a stiletto, regardless of how it was used, would not be left deliberately brittle, nor with deep incisions intended to break the blade more easily. Despite the obvious shortcomings of these daggers as defensive weapons, I think that much as most weapons worn in dress or court situations, they were entirely capable of at least limited combat potential.

Regarding my previous note on the advent of premeasured containers of powder precluding the need for these for measure, it is noted by Terenzi that these needlepoint stilettos served well to puncture the containers to release powder ar key locations for ignition.