A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 05:10 PM

Yes, Tim; that's probably the best known European folk art flower pottery of this sort, at least in N America. You seem to have posted while I was in a long mid-edit smoke and cartoon break

I once had the coolest bee broken off of a pot that a river gave to me; I definitely agree to the resemblance, and the merchantile connection seems perhaps meaningful too; thanks. What I'm unsure of is if the style is definitely Dutch, or if that's only its usual N American attribution. Similar work seems more widespread to me. The hilt seems to be assembled somwhat jewelry style; are these layers, or essentially large beads of clay? Or is some other surface painted to look like pottery? Questions for the ether............

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th April 2005, 07:59 PM

I know as I initiated this quest for the origins of this sword that many options are available so I gave the title a very vague origin area: Sino (pan far Eastearn Asian, from China to Indochina) and Japanese and I just wanna say out of pure feeling of guess but pretty strong, however not too founded yet that my take is that the blade is of Japanese origins while the rest was styled by the Transylvanian armorer.
Perhaps the sword, rather a blade, found its way to Transylvania from Japan while fittings were in bad shape or maybe were not acceptable or "opulently rich" enough to please the ownership; obviously judging by the decoration the owner was beyond wealthy... How I wish we had a blade close-up photo !
One thing I do refuse to think, it is that the sword is of completely European facture 100%, without any direct influence, that I would not accept until someone bring some really solid argument or similar examples !
Quick note: the name inscribed Thomas Kapustran or Thomas Kapusi (as the exact Latin inscription mentions) is most likely a Sachsen (Saxon) minority (athe comunity was much larger then in the 17th century, not so much of a minority like nowadays) of Transylvania. So he probably spoke and think in German mostly ... In Transylvania, alongside Romanians (the ruling majority now demographically and politically) there were two Hungarian speaking nations (Hungarians and Szekely (or Secui in Roomanian language)) and two German(ic) speaking nations (Sachsen (or Sashi in Romanian or Saxons in English) and the Schwaben in southwest Transylvania).
The first German nation of Transylvania, Saxons, migrated from western Europe in the XIII and XIV century. The second nation, the Schwaben, they were more rurally agricultural folkspeople, started arriving in the 18th century so less relevant for our purposes regards the mysteryous sword from Siebenburgen (the German name of Transylvania, meaning :Seven Fortresses)...

Rick · 30th April 2005, 08:04 PM

Hi Radu , I think that the sword is of completely European manufacture , but 'with' Asian influence . Why do I think that ? The polish on the blade (what I can see of it

) seems very un-oriental , almost chrome like . Also consider the barely apparent grind lines in the steel ; wouldn't a Asian sword show grind lines parallel to the length of the blade ?

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th April 2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Radu , I think that the sword is of completely European manufacture , but 'with' Asian influence . Why do I think that ? The polish on the blade (what I can see of it

) seems very un-oriental , almost chrome like . Also consider the barely apparent grind lines in the steel ; wouldn't a Asian sword show grind lines parallel to the length of the blade ?

Rick, I have a feeling once we get more images, specially of the blade, or more info in a very positive way you will be disapointed, mark my words full of hope ...

Mick · 30th April 2005, 08:38 PM

fearn

As someone who has spent 15 years in the Antarctic, I can guarantee that there are no dandelions at McMudo unless they someone is growing them in the hydroponics shack.

fearn · 30th April 2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

fearn

As someone who has spent 15 years in the Antarctic, I can guarantee that there are no dandelions at McMudo unless they someone is growing them in the hydroponics shack.

Hi Mick,

Cool!

You're probably right, although if they're growing lettuce in a greenhouse, they've got a sunflower relative growing on Antarctica. Yes, I know that the Antarctic native flora consists of two species (a grass and a carnation relative). I also know that some weeds have got a bare toehold around some of the bigger stations like McMurdo. There aren't any google references to dandelions at McMurdo, which I find comforting.

Anyway, this is OT. The basic point was that the flowers can't be used to identify the origin of the sword, and that I'm sticking by. Personally, I agree with the people who are thinking European enamel work, but that's just my minimally informed guess.

Frank

tom hyle · 1st May 2005, 01:08 AM

And the hamon on a Japanese sword usually goes into the habiki, though the edge bit on a pinch-welded one I know stops considerably short of the blade base, much as is seen on some Oceanic SE Asian work. However, I think I do see folding grain to the steel; this is not neccessarily a sign of Japaneseness or anything; it's what you see in Europe at the time. It's possible a Japanese sword (blade) was given an European polish; I just don't see any real sign of it.

Rick · 30th April 2005, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Rick, I have a feeling once we get more images, specially of the blade, or more info in a very positive way you will be disapointed, mark my words full of hope ...

You are , no doubt on the hunt my Transylvanian friend .
May you succeed !
I am looking forward to 'disappointment' .

Andrew · 30th April 2005, 09:40 PM

This is such a cool sword, I really do hope you can dig up some photos of the blade, Radu!

The Japanese connection is apparant to me in the tsuba-like guard and the cosmetic "seppa" and "habaki" at the forte. These features do, as Mark has illustrated, appear on some SEA weapons, likely the result of Japanese or, perhaps, Chinese influence.

Some questions: is the handle round in cross-section? It appears to be, albeit flaring towards the pommel. Conical?

Does the blade have a ridge-line, like a shinogi, or is it a wedge cross-section? If a ridge-line is present, the Japanese connection gets ever stronger, and if a wedge, with that flat spine, I'm leaning more and more toward's Mark's theory.

The tip geometry, and blade construction may well decide matters as to influence and/or origin of the blade. Tom's note about the tang may be impossible to ever learn, but would also be very edifying.

Please keep us posted, Radu.

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 09:43 PM

One often sees transverse grind lines on Asian swords. Usually, though not always, there are longwise ones over them, and they are spotty remnants; uneraddicated deep grind lines. However, this blade appears to have been soft-buffed? The lines aren't ground out; they seem smeared or blurred. Note also the squared spine. The habiki, which seems integral to the guard (?) seems to fit flush, meaning the steel is undercut, all around, and is not inlet at the spine.

30th April 2005, 07:59 PM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I know as I initiated this quest for the origins of this sword that many options are available so I gave the title a very vague origin area: Sino (pan far Eastearn Asian, from China to Indochina) and Japanese and I just wanna say out of pure feeling of guess but pretty strong, however not too founded yet that my take is that the blade is of Japanese origins while the rest was styled by the Transylvanian armorer. Perhaps the sword, rather a blade, found its way to Transylvania from Japan while fittings were in bad shape or maybe were not acceptable or "opulently rich" enough to please the ownership; obviously judging by the decoration the owner was beyond wealthy... How I wish we had a blade close-up photo ! One thing I do refuse to think, it is that the sword is of completely European facture 100%, without any direct influence, that I would not accept until someone bring some really solid argument or similar examples ! Quick note: the name inscribed Thomas Kapustran or Thomas Kapusi (as the exact Latin inscription mentions) is most likely a Sachsen (Saxon) minority (athe comunity was much larger then in the 17th century, not so much of a minority like nowadays) of Transylvania. So he probably spoke and think in German mostly ... In Transylvania, alongside Romanians (the ruling majority now demographically and politically) there were two Hungarian speaking nations (Hungarians and Szekely (or Secui in Roomanian language)) and two German(ic) speaking nations (Sachsen (or Sashi in Romanian or Saxons in English) and the Schwaben in southwest Transylvania). The first German nation of Transylvania, Saxons, migrated from western Europe in the XIII and XIV century. The second nation, the Schwaben, they were more rurally agricultural folkspeople, started arriving in the 18th century so less relevant for our purposes regards the mysteryous sword from Siebenburgen (the German name of Transylvania, meaning :Seven Fortresses)... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 30th April 2005 at 08:20 PM.

1st May 2005, 01:08 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	and And the hamon on a Japanese sword usually goes into the habiki, though the edge bit on a pinch-welded one I know stops considerably short of the blade base, much as is seen on some Oceanic SE Asian work. However, I think I do see folding grain to the steel; this is not neccessarily a sign of Japaneseness or anything; it's what you see in Europe at the time. It's possible a Japanese sword (blade) was given an European polish; I just don't see any real sign of it.

30th April 2005, 05:10 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, Tim; that's probably the best known European folk art flower pottery of this sort, at least in N America. You seem to have posted while I was in a long mid-edit smoke and cartoon break I once had the coolest bee broken off of a pot that a river gave to me; I definitely agree to the resemblance, and the merchantile connection seems perhaps meaningful too; thanks. What I'm unsure of is if the style is definitely Dutch, or if that's only its usual N American attribution. Similar work seems more widespread to me. The hilt seems to be assembled somwhat jewelry style; are these layers, or essentially large beads of clay? Or is some other surface painted to look like pottery? Questions for the ether............

30th April 2005, 08:04 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Radu , I think that the sword is of completely European manufacture , but 'with' Asian influence . Why do I think that ? The polish on the blade (what I can see of it ) seems very un-oriental , almost chrome like . Also consider the barely apparent grind lines in the steel ; wouldn't a Asian sword show grind lines parallel to the length of the blade ?

30th April 2005, 08:38 PM	#5
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	fearn As someone who has spent 15 years in the Antarctic, I can guarantee that there are no dandelions at McMudo unless they someone is growing them in the hydroponics shack.

30th April 2005, 09:40 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	This is such a cool sword, I really do hope you can dig up some photos of the blade, Radu! The Japanese connection is apparant to me in the tsuba-like guard and the cosmetic "seppa" and "habaki" at the forte. These features do, as Mark has illustrated, appear on some SEA weapons, likely the result of Japanese or, perhaps, Chinese influence. Some questions: is the handle round in cross-section? It appears to be, albeit flaring towards the pommel. Conical? Does the blade have a ridge-line, like a shinogi, or is it a wedge cross-section? If a ridge-line is present, the Japanese connection gets ever stronger, and if a wedge, with that flat spine, I'm leaning more and more toward's Mark's theory. The tip geometry, and blade construction may well decide matters as to influence and/or origin of the blade. Tom's note about the tang may be impossible to ever learn, but would also be very edifying. Please keep us posted, Radu.

30th April 2005, 09:43 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	One often sees transverse grind lines on Asian swords. Usually, though not always, there are longwise ones over them, and they are spotty remnants; uneraddicated deep grind lines. However, this blade appears to have been soft-buffed? The lines aren't ground out; they seem smeared or blurred. Note also the squared spine. The habiki, which seems integral to the guard (?) seems to fit flush, meaning the steel is undercut, all around, and is not inlet at the spine.