A ‚Christian’ Yataghan – Translation help needed :-)

[Tatyana Dianova]

Dom, thank you for the very interesting reply!
It is not very important to me, if this blade is 19 or 20 century, as long as it is beautiful and has a good quality When I ask about the age, I just want to learn more

[ALEX]

Tatyana, the blade is dated as 1214 (not 1314), I think Dom mis-typed it, so it is early 19th century indeed. The 'fish' depiction is fairly common on Islamic objects, especially in silver inlay, so the concept is known. However I have not seen it on the weapons. Would be interesting to know what it stands for in Islamic realm, but I think it would not relate to a Christian concept, just like the 'Star of David' commonly seen on Islamic objects does not represent purely 'Jewish symbol'.

P.S. The standard Islamic cartouche does resemble a stylized fish profile. As Battara mentioned earlier, it is also a floral motif. The one on the yataghan, even without the inner text, could be just that - an 'empty' cartouche i.e. stylized cartouche or floral shape.

[ward]

There are some 16th century swords in Topkapi Palace that have a small fish on the grip, these are gold silver or other metal. I heard that fish were a symbol of potency to the early Turks, so it's probably pre-Islamic but stayed in use. First yataghan I've seen with that motif nice one.
Alex and Battara have a good point too, it could be the outline of a tulip which was big with the Ottomans or a simple form abstracted from a more complex one.

[Zifir]

Hi,

The long inscription is:

Bu bıçağın darbesinden cümle düşman tar ü mar
İntikam alır aduvvdan sanki misli zülfikar


All enemies scatter from the strike of this sword
It takes revenge from enemy as if it is zulfikar (Caliph Ali's sword)

[Dom]

Hi Zifir, salam aleikum

thanks for your help in translation, but PLEASE
if you note any error in our effort of translation
as far as too many time it's turkish weapons are concerned
do not be shy to correct us, at least we will learn some thing
I am talking truely

best regards

à +

Dom

[Tatyana Dianova]

Ward and Alex, great additional info from your side!
Zifir – many thanks for the poem translation! I really like it

[Zifir]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Zifir, salam aleikum

thanks for your help in translation, but PLEASE
if you note any error in our effort of translation
as far as too many time it's turkish weapons are concerned
do not be shy to correct us, at least we will learn some thing
I am talking truely

best regards

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,
Majority of yatagans seem to have inscriptions written in simple Ottoman Turkish rather than in more elaborate elite language which included many persian and arabic words. Otherwise they will be easier for you to read. And these are mostly simple ryhmes rather than complex verses of poems. (Good excuse for my amateurish translations

Tatyana you're very welcome.


By the way, I came across an interesting reference today. In a document dated to 1877, the Ottoman government gave an order of 10,000 yatagans for the army, each for 70 gurush (100 gurush = 1 Ottoman lira, 1 Ottoman lira = 1.10 pound sterling). It was interesting to learn that the army was still using yatagans at such a late date.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Marc, thank you very much for the link! It is a great article, which clears a lot. I would like to add a couple of comments on the dragon ornament. The dragons examples from the Alexander’s articles have probably a Chinese origin. I do not mean their manufacture place of course, but their form and meaning (imperial power). Astvatzaturyan (‘Turkish Arms’ book) notes that the Ottoman decorations in 15-16th centuries have a strong Chinese influence. One may often find for example lotus flowers (‘hatayi’) and ‘chinese clouds’ (‘tchi’) on Ottoman textiles, ceramics and arms from this period. There are two very nice early (16th century) yataghan examples (Astvatzaturyan ‘Turkish Arms’, page 134 and Bashir Mohamed ‘The Arts of the Muslim Knight’, page 56) which show clearly these Chinese ornaments, including the dragon. Another ‘hatayi’ and ‘tchi’ examples you may find in the above mentioned Alexander’s article, for example, on page 254.
I have found also very interesting the following Alexander’s comment: ‘The dragon emblem has been wildly misunderstood and transformed into a wavy bifurcated squiggle, yet it retains the impression of a dragon, mouth agape, winding its way towards the blade.’ It clears a bit the snake symbolism on the Islamic blades (maybe!). Even ‘my’ yataghan has snake-like ornaments on the grip bolsters!
Zifir, I think that in Astvatzaturyan (‘Turkish Arms’) you may find the picture of this army yataghan:

[Marc]

Originally Posted by ward

There are some 16th century swords in Topkapi Palace that have a small fish on the grip, these are gold silver or other metal. I heard that fish were a symbol of potency to the early Turks, so it's probably pre-Islamic but stayed in use.

Indeed, there's an article in "GLADIUS" by David Alexander dealing with this symbolism. It can be found HERE