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#1 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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I'm not an expert, just an "amateur" ![]() my comments involve ... only myself ... without any warranty ![]() my capacities, are, just to have opportunity of a "charming spouse" fully fluent in arabic, and Islamic culture, and be myself fascinated for Middle-East and more particularly his weapons and armors ![]() you was expressing the possibility of "an hidden Christian" !!! when you will know that according with Islam the Muslim relapse is convicted by death (beheaded ..) ![]() only a senseless could take a major risk to show a Christian sign ![]() concerning the date, until 1923 date of disbanded of Othman Empire and the end of XX century, it was very fanshionnable to be infatuated by "antic's", see Viollet-le-Duc period in France, plenty copies of "Orientalism", Napoleon the Third ans his wife Eugénie very popular in Egypt, where have been exported the style "N III", who is a "L. XIV" copy .... ![]() even we have Qajar Art ended around 1924, and that Persian production looks oldest than his period, with; armors, helmets, brassards, axes, hammers, mailshirt, etc. not easy to know with certitude where is the truth, may be there are ... several truthes ... ![]() best regards à + Dom |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 735
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Dom, thank you for the very interesting reply!
It is not very important to me, if this blade is 19 or 20 century, as long as it is beautiful and has a good quality ![]() ![]() |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
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Tatyana, the blade is dated as 1214 (not 1314), I think Dom mis-typed it, so it is early 19th century indeed. The 'fish' depiction is fairly common on Islamic objects, especially in silver inlay, so the concept is known. However I have not seen it on the weapons. Would be interesting to know what it stands for in Islamic realm, but I think it would not relate to a Christian concept, just like the 'Star of David' commonly seen on Islamic objects does not represent purely 'Jewish symbol'.
P.S. The standard Islamic cartouche does resemble a stylized fish profile. As Battara mentioned earlier, it is also a floral motif. The one on the yataghan, even without the inner text, could be just that - an 'empty' cartouche i.e. stylized cartouche or floral shape. Last edited by ALEX; 27th May 2009 at 05:29 PM. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 637
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There are some 16th century swords in Topkapi Palace that have a small fish on the grip, these are gold silver or other metal. I heard that fish were a symbol of potency to the early Turks, so it's probably pre-Islamic but stayed in use. First yataghan I've seen with that motif nice one.
Alex and Battara have a good point too, it could be the outline of a tulip which was big with the Ottomans or a simple form abstracted from a more complex one. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
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Hi,
The long inscription is: Bu bıçağın darbesinden cümle düşman tar ü mar İntikam alır aduvvdan sanki misli zülfikar All enemies scatter from the strike of this sword It takes revenge from enemy as if it is zulfikar (Caliph Ali's sword) |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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Hi Zifir, salam aleikum
thanks for your help in translation, but PLEASE if you note any error in our effort of translation as far as too many time it's turkish weapons are concerned do not be shy to correct us, at least we will learn some thing ![]() I am talking truely ![]() best regards à + Dom |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 735
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Ward and Alex, great additional info from your side!
Zifir – many thanks for the poem translation! I really like it ![]() |
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#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
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Majority of yatagans seem to have inscriptions written in simple Ottoman Turkish rather than in more elaborate elite language which included many persian and arabic words. Otherwise they will be easier for you to read. And these are mostly simple ryhmes rather than complex verses of poems. (Good excuse for my amateurish translations ![]() Tatyana you're very welcome. By the way, I came across an interesting reference today. In a document dated to 1877, the Ottoman government gave an order of 10,000 yatagans for the army, each for 70 gurush (100 gurush = 1 Ottoman lira, 1 Ottoman lira = 1.10 pound sterling). It was interesting to learn that the army was still using yatagans at such a late date. |
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Madrid / Barcelona
Posts: 256
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