Rare Pilipino Swords....

[Spunjer]

...it may depend on what you mean by laminated, and seems to vary with time, if nothing else.

tom, what i mean when i say laminated, something similar to a moro sword, particularly the barung.
could you please elaborate more on this statement: "commonly lineal folded steel that has been welded for homogeneity and usually edge-hardened ". does that mean that if i etch a blade that has that characteristic, what i would get is a very dark edge, almost black, and the rest of the blade is gray, without those "topographic" lines?

[tom hyle]

More or less. Steel that has been welded for homogeneity, basically simply folded steel, does exhibit layers, even if intially folded up from a single piece (which is not traditionally usual, but I think is seen with swords made from springs, for instance); the fire alters the alloy at the surface of the billet, so the dividing lines can be found, and of course you will see them where there are welding flaws etc, but A/ it will often take a lot of etching, and B/ what was B? Dang, there was B......B/fine layers will often appear as a small-grained lineal fibrousness, almost similar to the inside of rattan.
Moro swords, though less-so kris sundang, are often much like this, too, with a temper line, but the welding is done, for technological and/or aesthetic reasons, for contrast/difference; to leave layers of differing alloys which still retain their individual natures/alloys/properties, and that are easily seen from an etch. Other Moro blades I've seen have inlaid edges, or occasionally panelled construction (like Turkish or medieval German(nic) swords), and some such macro-lamination (with a crosswise temper line that's often visible only in the edge steel, the rest often being unhardenable) appears usual on old kris sundang. So there are two very seperable issues here; micro-lamination (ie. folding or patterning in the steel) which can be done for homogeneity or for contrast; and macro-lamination, which is the joining of larger pieces to form a blade, usually with the idea of using their various properties in appropriate areas, but occasionally for size. Typically the macro laminated SE Asian blade is made of micro laminated pieces, but not always, of course, especially the edge (bit) which is likely more often/earlier imported industrial steel than would be whole blades.

[tom hyle]

Once I got a double temper line etching a Visayan sword and I don't know what to say about it. There is a narrow stripe at the edge that's dark, and then a wider stipe that's less dark, and then the paler "base" colour, if I may. Sometimes it's hard to tell weld lines from temper lines, but hese lines do not coincide with the grain of the metal.

[Rick]

I'd like to read your impressions on these construction methods :

[Ian]

Here is a Visayan sword that I posted a while back in another thread. The edge hardening is obvious after an etch with ferric chloride. What's your take on the method used here?

[tom hyle]

Photos are difficult to read compared to examining an object but I'll give a go. Rick, That kris sundang apears to be a sandwich type blade, which is usual. It is possible that it is panel-welded, but one does not often see that much wander to the core on panel welded swords, whereas it is fairly common to see in the side plates from forging out the tip on sandwich type blades (is it kind of helical, or does it go toward the same edge on both sides?). The cheeks of the blade seem to show some contrast internally/macro. The very central (widthwise speaking) area seems to perhaps have a more complex pattern of some kind, but is not clear in the photo? Is it humped, or hollowed? Does it show core or a sort of 5 layer constuction; I've seen kris sundang with 5 macro layers; didn't etch 'em, but it'd make sense if the outer one on the flats was a decorative one, and I don't think I've seen an old kris sundang (this is a kris sundang, yes?) with hollow ground flats, which might expose the core on a sandwich blade. Oop Yes I have, but only as a distinct groove; not the subtle hollowed flat. Looking some more. It looks like a more or less flattened hex cross section. Near the tip there's a small welding flaw within the pattern of the most outer macro layer (?), but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
The dog head sword looks to be displaying a temper line. It could be an inlaid edge, but seems to exhibit a jagged uneveness usually seen only from welds if they are for pattern, which is possible, but I don't think is what I'm seeing. Not at all sure though, and probably being influenced by my expectations. Close-up? The blade has some longwise lines that may be fold lines, but are more likely grindlines, and some cloudy shapes that are probably sheen/patination/etc?
The close close up I can't see much in; I think I see an inlaid edge; I see some kind of layering, and only right at the edge. I'm not sure what to make of the dark area on the blunt (?) side of the tip.
Ian, I see a temper line on the one you show. Note it is the same breadth on both sides; a macro weld on this type of blade is expected to be scarfed, so it is wide on the flat side, and narrow like this on the cutting bevel. I don't see any sign of folding, but it looks like an old sword to me, and it probably is folded steel with the other main likelihood being imported foreign industrial steel, but as I say, I suspect that was often folded as well, by PI smiths. Notice the temper line stops well short of the base of the blade.

[Ian]

Tom:

I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process?

Ian.