Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:57 AM

The people to whom this type of hilt was and is most attractive are those with a strong belief in the esoteric.

drdavid · 17th May 2009, 02:04 AM

Thanks Alan for posting this most interesting piece. How much do you think it has been 'altered' from its native state? (By altered I mean carved). This piece is much more sophisticated than your average bit of tree branch, it looks like roots or vines were wrapped around it as it grew and it has that sense of a respectful bow about it.

It raises a question for me. Is it possible that the most primitive of keris hilts were all just a bent piece of tree root or similar? Given what is known about the first appearance of the keris compared to the development of the plastic arts at the same time this seems unlikely, but I would appreciate others opinions?

drdavid

We get interesting root forms from under the sand roads here on Cape Cod .

Here's one I altered a bit, (3 faces, cloven hoof) that I found in the woods on an old cart path in Wellfleet 30 years ago .

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 02:51 AM

David, as far as I can see there has been virtually no real carving of this hilt, but there has been cleaning up and finishing, of course the ferrule area has been regularised to allow fitting.

The modern keris developed from a fairly refined dagger used in an overhand action. I am certain that the original hilts used for the early versions of the modern keris would have been at least as refined as their predecessors. This is borne out by the comments in the Ying-yai Sheng-lan, which dates from about 1416.

This type of natural hilt is not indicative of a line of development, but rather of the esoteric beliefs of humanity.

Jussi M. · 10th August 2010, 10:23 PM

Up!

Is this thread not a candidate for becoming a "classic"?

Thanks,

J.

Rick · 10th August 2010, 10:46 PM

Done, and thanks !

ganjawulung · 11th August 2010, 06:16 PM

Another example, almost similar -- but of course not the same -- as Alan's. A friend of mine, a Palembang origin gentleman, called this style of hilt as "Palembang Pagaralam" hilt. Simple form, almost like "natural" bending wood... According to this Palembang gentleman, Pagaralam style geographically from between Palembang (South Sumatra) and Padang (West Sumatra)...

Another thread, related to Jawa Demam discussion:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=jawa+demam

GANJAWULUNG

Aji™ · 16th August 2010, 02:00 AM

And i guess here's the link to the natural ones.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11822

17th May 2009, 12:57 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	The people to whom this type of hilt was and is most attractive are those with a strong belief in the esoteric. Attached Images

17th May 2009, 02:04 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Thanks Alan for posting this most interesting piece. How much do you think it has been 'altered' from its native state? (By altered I mean carved). This piece is much more sophisticated than your average bit of tree branch, it looks like roots or vines were wrapped around it as it grew and it has that sense of a respectful bow about it. It raises a question for me. Is it possible that the most primitive of keris hilts were all just a bent piece of tree root or similar? Given what is known about the first appearance of the keris compared to the development of the plastic arts at the same time this seems unlikely, but I would appreciate others opinions? drdavid We get interesting root forms from under the sand roads here on Cape Cod . Here's one I altered a bit, (3 faces, cloven hoof) that I found in the woods on an old cart path in Wellfleet 30 years ago . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 17th May 2009 at 05:06 AM.

11th August 2010, 06:16 PM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Palembang Pagaralam Another example, almost similar -- but of course not the same -- as Alan's. A friend of mine, a Palembang origin gentleman, called this style of hilt as "Palembang Pagaralam" hilt. Simple form, almost like "natural" bending wood... According to this Palembang gentleman, Pagaralam style geographically from between Palembang (South Sumatra) and Padang (West Sumatra)... Another thread, related to Jawa Demam discussion: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=jawa+demam GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

16th August 2010, 02:00 AM	#7
Aji™ Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Pulau Temasek Posts: 14	Natural And i guess here's the link to the natural ones. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11822

17th May 2009, 02:51 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	David, as far as I can see there has been virtually no real carving of this hilt, but there has been cleaning up and finishing, of course the ferrule area has been regularised to allow fitting. The modern keris developed from a fairly refined dagger used in an overhand action. I am certain that the original hilts used for the early versions of the modern keris would have been at least as refined as their predecessors. This is borne out by the comments in the Ying-yai Sheng-lan, which dates from about 1416. This type of natural hilt is not indicative of a line of development, but rather of the esoteric beliefs of humanity.

10th August 2010, 10:23 PM	#4
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Up! Is this thread not a candidate for becoming a "classic"? Thanks, J.

10th August 2010, 10:46 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Done, and thanks !