Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form

drdavid · 16th May 2009, 08:42 AM

If I might refer back to something you mentioned Alan

Quote:

I can see more than just two sources for keris hilt origin. There are the giants, the ogres, the spirits, the demons, the deities, the wayang characters, and perhaps even the ancestors. Then there are the purely vegetable forms and purely animal and bird forms. There are also the rarest of the rare:- the naturally occurring forms that are adapted for use as keris hilts. There are many sources for keris hilt motifs.

What do you mean by the naturally occurring hilt forms that are adapted for use as a keris hilt? Do you have any examples that you could show?

If the moderators feel it would be better that this be a separate question please split this topic off

drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2009, 09:04 AM

Probably the most rare and most prized of all keris hilts is the hilt that is a natural object, say a piece of root-wood, that has a form making it suitable for immediate use as a hilt, and with only the finishing to be carried out.

I have only ever seen two hilts of this type, and I own only one.

I will put up a photo tomorrow if I have the light.

erikscollectables · 16th May 2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Probably the most rare and most prized of all keris hilts is the hilt that is a natural object, say a piece of root-wood, that has a form making it suitable for immediate use as a hilt, and with only the finishing to be carried out.

I have only ever seen two hilts of this type, and I own only one.

I will put up a photo tomorrow if I have the light.

Interesting, look forward to this. To whom would this type have been valuable? People with money, nobility or religious people?

Erik

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 12:57 AM

The people to whom this type of hilt was and is most attractive are those with a strong belief in the esoteric.

drdavid · 17th May 2009, 02:04 AM

Thanks Alan for posting this most interesting piece. How much do you think it has been 'altered' from its native state? (By altered I mean carved). This piece is much more sophisticated than your average bit of tree branch, it looks like roots or vines were wrapped around it as it grew and it has that sense of a respectful bow about it.

It raises a question for me. Is it possible that the most primitive of keris hilts were all just a bent piece of tree root or similar? Given what is known about the first appearance of the keris compared to the development of the plastic arts at the same time this seems unlikely, but I would appreciate others opinions?

drdavid

We get interesting root forms from under the sand roads here on Cape Cod .

Here's one I altered a bit, (3 faces, cloven hoof) that I found in the woods on an old cart path in Wellfleet 30 years ago .

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2009, 02:51 AM

David, as far as I can see there has been virtually no real carving of this hilt, but there has been cleaning up and finishing, of course the ferrule area has been regularised to allow fitting.

The modern keris developed from a fairly refined dagger used in an overhand action. I am certain that the original hilts used for the early versions of the modern keris would have been at least as refined as their predecessors. This is borne out by the comments in the Ying-yai Sheng-lan, which dates from about 1416.

This type of natural hilt is not indicative of a line of development, but rather of the esoteric beliefs of humanity.

Jussi M. · 10th August 2010, 10:23 PM

Up!

Is this thread not a candidate for becoming a "classic"?

Thanks,

J.

17th May 2009, 12:57 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	The people to whom this type of hilt was and is most attractive are those with a strong belief in the esoteric. Attached Images

17th May 2009, 02:04 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Thanks Alan for posting this most interesting piece. How much do you think it has been 'altered' from its native state? (By altered I mean carved). This piece is much more sophisticated than your average bit of tree branch, it looks like roots or vines were wrapped around it as it grew and it has that sense of a respectful bow about it. It raises a question for me. Is it possible that the most primitive of keris hilts were all just a bent piece of tree root or similar? Given what is known about the first appearance of the keris compared to the development of the plastic arts at the same time this seems unlikely, but I would appreciate others opinions? drdavid We get interesting root forms from under the sand roads here on Cape Cod . Here's one I altered a bit, (3 faces, cloven hoof) that I found in the woods on an old cart path in Wellfleet 30 years ago . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 17th May 2009 at 05:06 AM.

16th May 2009, 09:04 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	Probably the most rare and most prized of all keris hilts is the hilt that is a natural object, say a piece of root-wood, that has a form making it suitable for immediate use as a hilt, and with only the finishing to be carried out. I have only ever seen two hilts of this type, and I own only one. I will put up a photo tomorrow if I have the light.

17th May 2009, 02:51 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	David, as far as I can see there has been virtually no real carving of this hilt, but there has been cleaning up and finishing, of course the ferrule area has been regularised to allow fitting. The modern keris developed from a fairly refined dagger used in an overhand action. I am certain that the original hilts used for the early versions of the modern keris would have been at least as refined as their predecessors. This is borne out by the comments in the Ying-yai Sheng-lan, which dates from about 1416. This type of natural hilt is not indicative of a line of development, but rather of the esoteric beliefs of humanity.

10th August 2010, 10:23 PM	#7
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Up! Is this thread not a candidate for becoming a "classic"? Thanks, J.