snake or frigate bird

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2009, 04:33 PM

It is not a frigate bird well certianly not as depicted on the Solomon Islands. All images I have from the Solomons have the hook. I am not saying it is not a snake. I am just exploring what we see and not taking for granted what we as westerns assume straight away. Just because the main part is a spiral does not mean it is a snake? The eye sokets could be avian? The pattern to the back of the head is interesting, could be part of the wood? As soon as I have it I will follow up. In the time being I will try to show other similar things. These pictures will do for starters. From Anthony JP Meyer "Oceanic Art" the staff is 3 inches longer than the one I hope to recieve.

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2009, 06:56 PM

I have found some very intersting information about people known as Keraki Papuans. The link is worth exploring more by clicking on Keraki at the top of the page. To cut if short the first beings {Gainjin} returned the the sky all except Bugal the snake and Warger the crocodile who still haunt the bush today. So I am starting to form the idea that it is indeed a snake. With very little contact untill 1920-39s it looks very much like it should, if it is that.

http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/...e-Culture.html

Nick Wardigo · 12th May 2009, 01:35 PM

Attaching an image of the hood of a Spectacled Cobra.

josh stout · 12th May 2009, 06:07 PM

Thanks Nick, that is the sort of thing I was thinking of, but the spectacled cobra and the monocled cobra are not quite the same as what is on the stick, they just make me think that there may be a cobra with the right pattern. I also wonder what the pattern would look like when the hood is down. Perhaps it would be more like the stick pattern.

I have heard many stories of native peoples who cannot identify a bird from picture, or in some cases even dead, but they can recognize it high in the trees from the rustle. I suspect that many times animals are difficult for us to ID from ethnographc depictions because what is emphasized is different from what we see in pictures. For example, there may not have been enough wood for the hood of a cobra, so the carver put the cobra mark on, but depicted the mark as it would be when the hood is down. Something obvious to any local can be mystifying to us.
Josh

Tim Simmons · 12th May 2009, 06:24 PM

Very interesting. I had hoped to have it today, perhaps tomorrow. From these pictures it is difficult to see what has made the mark on the back of the head. I feel if you are trying to show other people a cobra, it cannot be achieved with showing the hood. Perhaps it is the narrow neck ?mark cobra

but that is just being silly. I feel pretty sure it is not Asian or African. I cannot wait to get my hands on it, if only to see what material makes the eyes. If it all turns out to be rubbish well all I lost is about two double burgers and ordinary fries.

fearn · 12th May 2009, 06:53 PM

Just to get this conversation going in an extremely biological direction, I'd like to note that the cobra family (elapidae) is extremely common in the Australasian region, and includes such fun snakes as death adders and taipans.

Some of them look like cobras, some do not. Bottom line is that the elapids are widespread through Africa, Asia, Australia, and the central islands of Melanesia, so a cobra-like mark on a snake cane doesn't preclude it from coming from Melanesia.

My 0.00002 kina,

F

David · 12th May 2009, 07:54 PM

Tim, i think it is clear to see that regardless of what the eyes are made of or the origin of this staff, it isn't really possible that it is "rubbish". It's a fine folk art staff no matter how you look at it.
I also think that with folk art we can't get too fussy over anatomical correctness. Part of what makes it folk art. I think that in all probability it was intended to be a snake, but nailing it down to the exact species from the carved features is not very likely. No real snake looks like this.

11th May 2009, 04:33 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	It is not a frigate bird well certianly not as depicted on the Solomon Islands. All images I have from the Solomons have the hook. I am not saying it is not a snake. I am just exploring what we see and not taking for granted what we as westerns assume straight away. Just because the main part is a spiral does not mean it is a snake? The eye sokets could be avian? The pattern to the back of the head is interesting, could be part of the wood? As soon as I have it I will follow up. In the time being I will try to show other similar things. These pictures will do for starters. From Anthony JP Meyer "Oceanic Art" the staff is 3 inches longer than the one I hope to recieve. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th May 2009 at 04:58 PM.

11th May 2009, 06:56 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Interesting stuff I have found some very intersting information about people known as Keraki Papuans. The link is worth exploring more by clicking on Keraki at the top of the page. To cut if short the first beings {Gainjin} returned the the sky all except Bugal the snake and Warger the crocodile who still haunt the bush today. So I am starting to form the idea that it is indeed a snake. With very little contact untill 1920-39s it looks very much like it should, if it is that. http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/...e-Culture.html

12th May 2009, 01:35 PM	#3
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Attaching an image of the hood of a Spectacled Cobra. Attached Images

12th May 2009, 06:24 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very interesting. I had hoped to have it today, perhaps tomorrow. From these pictures it is difficult to see what has made the mark on the back of the head. I feel if you are trying to show other people a cobra, it cannot be achieved with showing the hood. Perhaps it is the narrow neck ?mark cobra but that is just being silly. I feel pretty sure it is not Asian or African. I cannot wait to get my hands on it, if only to see what material makes the eyes. If it all turns out to be rubbish well all I lost is about two double burgers and ordinary fries. Attached Images

12th May 2009, 06:07 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks Nick, that is the sort of thing I was thinking of, but the spectacled cobra and the monocled cobra are not quite the same as what is on the stick, they just make me think that there may be a cobra with the right pattern. I also wonder what the pattern would look like when the hood is down. Perhaps it would be more like the stick pattern. I have heard many stories of native peoples who cannot identify a bird from picture, or in some cases even dead, but they can recognize it high in the trees from the rustle. I suspect that many times animals are difficult for us to ID from ethnographc depictions because what is emphasized is different from what we see in pictures. For example, there may not have been enough wood for the hood of a cobra, so the carver put the cobra mark on, but depicted the mark as it would be when the hood is down. Something obvious to any local can be mystifying to us. Josh

12th May 2009, 06:53 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Just to get this conversation going in an extremely biological direction, I'd like to note that the cobra family (elapidae) is extremely common in the Australasian region, and includes such fun snakes as death adders and taipans. Some of them look like cobras, some do not. Bottom line is that the elapids are widespread through Africa, Asia, Australia, and the central islands of Melanesia, so a cobra-like mark on a snake cane doesn't preclude it from coming from Melanesia. My 0.00002 kina, F

12th May 2009, 07:54 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Tim, i think it is clear to see that regardless of what the eyes are made of or the origin of this staff, it isn't really possible that it is "rubbish". It's a fine folk art staff no matter how you look at it. I also think that with folk art we can't get too fussy over anatomical correctness. Part of what makes it folk art. I think that in all probability it was intended to be a snake, but nailing it down to the exact species from the carved features is not very likely. No real snake looks like this.