Swordbreakers: A Myth ?

Gavin Nugent · 8th May 2009, 06:23 AM

Great Discussion guys and some very valid historical references.

Personally, I do wonder if this name "Sword Breaker" has been taken out of context.
There is no denying that these are real weapons whether actually used or not remains to be proven absolutely. But for these daggers to break a sword of old I think not.

To my reckoning, the name is used out of context, I believe "sword breaker" to be breaking the path and application of the sword, not shattering the blade. They are after all its a parrying weapon and they do break the path of the on coming blade, be it catching in grooves on the blades or the guards.

My 2 cents and food for thought.

Gav

cornelistromp · 8th May 2009, 07:55 AM

OK the test

I made a test with my tooth sword breaker and a 1620 rapier.
I did not do the full break test yet

when the rapier blade is between the teeth, it is really easy to hold the blade firmly without any tension. if you change the angle a bit the rapier blade is in a fixed position. it is very difficult to pull it out.
I also do think that a thinner rapier blade can break if you make the right move with it.

however I do agree that the main purpose of the left hand "sword breaker"
is holding the opponents blade for making a counter attack.

re: spring dagger
with this dagger it is not possible to hold or to break a blade.
I think the use of this dagger is to increase the "blocking surface".

re: 2 Handers zweihander
I think we have to open a separate thread there are a lot of stories and statements about the use of this interesting sword.

regards from Holland

Paul Macdonald · 8th May 2009, 10:35 AM

A couple of lovely pieces there, thanks for sharing!

Regarding the zweihander langets, the primary function of these are to guard the hand when the sword grip is shortened (ie. one hand on grip, one hand on leather covered ricasso, which is more effective in close combat).

Stops you losing fingers

broadaxe · 8th May 2009, 12:06 PM

Hi folks, I'm glad I managed to hop on this super-fascinating thread. Weird enough, only last week I had given a small presentation regarding that book, Kombination Waffen and someone in the crowd talked about those so-called Sword Breakers that "could snap an opponent's blade with a flick of the wrist". I told him that this is impossible due the facts mentioned here earlier by Paul Macdonald.
I'm always for "experimental archaeology", for this I have a small educational collection. Among other things a trident-style Main Gauche. I tried to break (each in several places along the blade) the blades of a large rapier, smallsword, old style epee and a foil. Now, I'm a kind of a physical person and it is just impossible. The only thing came close to snapping was the foil, while was being bent at its last third by a tremendous effort.
For your amusement I found this link - check it from 3.30!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xmM...eature=related

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2009, 09:04 PM

This thread truly does continue to get gooder and gooder !

thanks to such fantastic participation from all you here!!

It is especially exciting to have the expertise of Maestro Paul MacDonald, whose eloquent explanations of the dynamics involved in actual sword combat and that perspective in the use of these intriguing anomalies.

Great input Vandoo, and well placed observations, especially on the parrying elements on these two handers!

Gav, absolutely outstanding thoughts on the application of the term "sword breaker', I had not thought of that possibility. It is often challenging to try to understand a term colloquially applied to a weapon in the parlance of the time and referring to its actual purpose.
I think a similar case for example would be the small Scottish dagger traditionally worn in the Highlanders stocking...the 'skean dubh'. The term 'dubh' (Gaelic =black, dark) has long been thought to suggest the darkened wood often seen in the hilts, and that were typically 'black'. Actually the term 'dubh' can also, from what I understand mean dark = unknown, or hidden or concealed. Apparantly this comes from these 'hideout' weapons being hidden from view. The Highlander, typically heavily armed, would relinquish his armoury in a visit to avoid personal affront, but always maintained 'backup' just in case!

I discovered some of this with the origins of my own name, McDougall.
Apparantly in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, = son of the 'dark' foreigner. Since the ancient ancestry is Norse, these ancestors were hardly likely to be 'dark', however, in those early times, it was certainly unclear often, exactly where they from. Holding true to my ancestry, some question what planet I am from !

It certainly does make sense that the main gauche would be intended to 'break' (impede) the attack of the other blade, and these elaborately featured daggers would not only be psychologically disturbing to an opponent , but would have good potential to 'hold' the blade.
Excellent perspective very much worthy of serious consideration and further research, possibly more evidence in contemporary material.

Sa'ar, its great to have you with us, and its great to have your observations from a fencers perspective, as I know you are very much involved in that pursuit, and very much in the historical perspective.

Cornelis, outstanding empirical approach, and thank you so much ....but please be careful with those magnificent pieces! Excellent illustrations that truly add to the effects of actual implementation, and well placed remarks to add to consideration as we evaluate the possibilities here.

This truly is becoming MYTHBUSTERS in weaponry!!!

Thank you gentlemen, so very much!!

Jim

fearn · 9th May 2009, 02:08 AM

Hi Jim,

This is better than Mythbusters, because we've already got results. That might be sour grapes from pitching some weapons myths on their board a few years ago, but still it's fun to see people trying swordbreakers out and seeing what came of it.

Couple more thoughts. I think there might be a reason why they're called swordbreakers rather than, say, swordtrappers. If I was in a duel with you, and I had this weird gizmo called a "swordbreaker" in my off hand, you'd think, "right, amateur, that'll never break a sword." Then I'd trap your blade with it and skewer you. If I had a "swordtrapper" in my offhand, you'd take one look at it and be extra careful. Sometimes a misleading name is useful.

While I'm not sure how common swordbreakers are vs. main gauche blades, if they're less common, I'd guess it was because they're only useful if you've got a blade in your main hand. A main gauche is still a dagger, after all.

Great thread!

F

celtan · 9th May 2009, 01:17 PM

Some interesting main gauche pictures I have collected from the net in the last years. The serrated borders and decorations in many make me believe they were designed to prevent the opponent's blade from sliding away while pushing them out of the way for the riposte
OTOH, I still can't figure out the reason for so many holes and even ricasso-wells in some of them. To lighten the blade, or insert poison perhaps?
Please note that the Artileria Blade is a 19th C Victorian remake made in Toledo from the original.
Manuel Luis

Paul Macdonald · 9th May 2009, 02:05 PM

The oval recess in the ricasso as pictured above is for the thumb to fit in.

The grip is held with four fingers wrapped around and the thumb sits over the rear of the crossguard to sit on the ricasso face. Many original main gauches have this thumb recess to accomodate this grip.

8th May 2009, 06:23 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hmm sword breakers Great Discussion guys and some very valid historical references. Personally, I do wonder if this name "Sword Breaker" has been taken out of context. There is no denying that these are real weapons whether actually used or not remains to be proven absolutely. But for these daggers to break a sword of old I think not. To my reckoning, the name is used out of context, I believe "sword breaker" to be breaking the path and application of the sword, not shattering the blade. They are after all its a parrying weapon and they do break the path of the on coming blade, be it catching in grooves on the blades or the guards. My 2 cents and food for thought. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 8th May 2009 at 08:55 AM.

8th May 2009, 07:55 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	swordbreaktest OK the test I made a test with my tooth sword breaker and a 1620 rapier. I did not do the full break test yet when the rapier blade is between the teeth, it is really easy to hold the blade firmly without any tension. if you change the angle a bit the rapier blade is in a fixed position. it is very difficult to pull it out. I also do think that a thinner rapier blade can break if you make the right move with it. however I do agree that the main purpose of the left hand "sword breaker" is holding the opponents blade for making a counter attack. re: spring dagger with this dagger it is not possible to hold or to break a blade. I think the use of this dagger is to increase the "blocking surface". re: 2 Handers zweihander I think we have to open a separate thread there are a lot of stories and statements about the use of this interesting sword. regards from Holland Attached Images

9th May 2009, 01:17 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Some interesting main gauche pictures I have collected from the net in the last years. The serrated borders and decorations in many make me believe they were designed to prevent the opponent's blade from sliding away while pushing them out of the way for the riposte OTOH, I still can't figure out the reason for so many holes and even ricasso-wells in some of them. To lighten the blade, or insert poison perhaps? Please note that the Artileria Blade is a 19th C Victorian remake made in Toledo from the original. Manuel Luis Attached Images Last edited by celtan; 9th May 2009 at 01:28 PM.

8th May 2009, 10:35 AM	#3
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	A couple of lovely pieces there, thanks for sharing! Regarding the zweihander langets, the primary function of these are to guard the hand when the sword grip is shortened (ie. one hand on grip, one hand on leather covered ricasso, which is more effective in close combat). Stops you losing fingers

8th May 2009, 12:06 PM	#4
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hi folks, I'm glad I managed to hop on this super-fascinating thread. Weird enough, only last week I had given a small presentation regarding that book, Kombination Waffen and someone in the crowd talked about those so-called Sword Breakers that "could snap an opponent's blade with a flick of the wrist". I told him that this is impossible due the facts mentioned here earlier by Paul Macdonald. I'm always for "experimental archaeology", for this I have a small educational collection. Among other things a trident-style Main Gauche. I tried to break (each in several places along the blade) the blades of a large rapier, smallsword, old style epee and a foil. Now, I'm a kind of a physical person and it is just impossible. The only thing came close to snapping was the foil, while was being bent at its last third by a tremendous effort. For your amusement I found this link - check it from 3.30! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xmM...eature=related

8th May 2009, 09:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	This thread truly does continue to get gooder and gooder ! thanks to such fantastic participation from all you here!! It is especially exciting to have the expertise of Maestro Paul MacDonald, whose eloquent explanations of the dynamics involved in actual sword combat and that perspective in the use of these intriguing anomalies. Great input Vandoo, and well placed observations, especially on the parrying elements on these two handers! Gav, absolutely outstanding thoughts on the application of the term "sword breaker', I had not thought of that possibility. It is often challenging to try to understand a term colloquially applied to a weapon in the parlance of the time and referring to its actual purpose. I think a similar case for example would be the small Scottish dagger traditionally worn in the Highlanders stocking...the 'skean dubh'. The term 'dubh' (Gaelic =black, dark) has long been thought to suggest the darkened wood often seen in the hilts, and that were typically 'black'. Actually the term 'dubh' can also, from what I understand mean dark = unknown, or hidden or concealed. Apparantly this comes from these 'hideout' weapons being hidden from view. The Highlander, typically heavily armed, would relinquish his armoury in a visit to avoid personal affront, but always maintained 'backup' just in case! I discovered some of this with the origins of my own name, McDougall. Apparantly in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, = son of the 'dark' foreigner. Since the ancient ancestry is Norse, these ancestors were hardly likely to be 'dark', however, in those early times, it was certainly unclear often, exactly where they from. Holding true to my ancestry, some question what planet I am from ! It certainly does make sense that the main gauche would be intended to 'break' (impede) the attack of the other blade, and these elaborately featured daggers would not only be psychologically disturbing to an opponent , but would have good potential to 'hold' the blade. Excellent perspective very much worthy of serious consideration and further research, possibly more evidence in contemporary material. Sa'ar, its great to have you with us, and its great to have your observations from a fencers perspective, as I know you are very much involved in that pursuit, and very much in the historical perspective. Cornelis, outstanding empirical approach, and thank you so much ....but please be careful with those magnificent pieces! Excellent illustrations that truly add to the effects of actual implementation, and well placed remarks to add to consideration as we evaluate the possibilities here. This truly is becoming MYTHBUSTERS in weaponry!!! Thank you gentlemen, so very much!! Jim

9th May 2009, 02:08 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, This is better than Mythbusters, because we've already got results. That might be sour grapes from pitching some weapons myths on their board a few years ago, but still it's fun to see people trying swordbreakers out and seeing what came of it. Couple more thoughts. I think there might be a reason why they're called swordbreakers rather than, say, swordtrappers. If I was in a duel with you, and I had this weird gizmo called a "swordbreaker" in my off hand, you'd think, "right, amateur, that'll never break a sword." Then I'd trap your blade with it and skewer you. If I had a "swordtrapper" in my offhand, you'd take one look at it and be extra careful. Sometimes a misleading name is useful. While I'm not sure how common swordbreakers are vs. main gauche blades, if they're less common, I'd guess it was because they're only useful if you've got a blade in your main hand. A main gauche is still a dagger, after all. Great thread! F

9th May 2009, 02:05 PM	#8
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	The oval recess in the ricasso as pictured above is for the thumb to fit in. The grip is held with four fingers wrapped around and the thumb sits over the rear of the crossguard to sit on the ricasso face. Many original main gauches have this thumb recess to accomodate this grip.