Swordbreakers: A Myth ?

fearn · 6th May 2009, 10:13 PM

Hi Jim,

Fun thread!

I keep being reminded of the episode of Mythbusters where they attempted to cut a sword with a sword, and proved how difficult that feat was (basically, those movie shots of people cutting others' rapiers in half wouldn't work). Given that brute-force, edge on hacking of two swords against each other was insufficient in most cases to break either blade, I'd be real surprised if either the European or eastern sword-breakers actually lived up to their names. Rather, I think they're for grabbing and temporarily holding blades. That would give a small advantage to the person with the sword-breaker, and might justify the use of the weapon. It would also explain the damage seen.

Just a thought,

F

Paul Macdonald · 7th May 2009, 08:07 PM

Hi Folks,

A good topic.

If I may shed some light on the practical potential and effective use of these weapons...

The legend of `swordbreakers` is one that has been repeated and accepted in history every bit as much as `blood-grooves`!

Let us first look to the blades that these daggers are supposed to break. The `swordbreaking` daggers predominately date from the C17th, and are designed to be used in conjunction with and be facing the civilian rapier in single combat.
Rapier blades of the C17th do vary in section, width and thickness, largely depending upon the fencing style it is designed for, or down to personal preference in size and weight.

Regardless of width and thickness though, one essential standard prevails - that of quality of temper required for any rapier blade of practical use.

The thickness of any one well made and tempered rapier blade will vary from forte to foible with distal taper, becoming thinner towards the point, but in a different manner to a broadsword blade.

A broad or backsword blade is designed primarily to cut effectively and be light and fast in doing so. The distal taper therefore is pronounced, with many original blades tapering to a fraction of 1mm thick near the point. I have handled many originals where the blade steel tapers to the thickness no more than that of heavy paper or thin card. Steel this thin is effective for a cutting blade.

A rapier blade is designed primarily to thrust and pierce. It is designed to be used for two combative scenarios - the pre-arranged duel and the street fight. In the street fight, that piercing blade must pierce the body efficiently through whatever clothing the opponent wears. A blade too thin here would be a liability. Some thickness of steel and hardness of temper is therefore required for a good rapier blade to pierce without overly flexing.

Any well tempered and hardened blade is difficult to break without large amounts of leverage and pressure. Effective mechanical leverage relies upon some distance between point of contact (fulcrum) and the point where force is applied.

For dagger examples where the quillions turn towards the point, then yes, these can effectively catch an opponents blade, but there is minimal distance from point of force (hand) and fulcrum.
This combined with the fact that pommels and quillions are traditionally crafted in a softer working material than the weapon blade gives us combined elements of insufficient force of leverage and weaker material of construction. These do not give us practical dynamics with which to physically break a blade.

Also martially speaking, there is no great advantage gained to breaking an opponents blade. A broken blade is never a blunt blade, but a sharp and jagged ended blade that is just as easily stuck through face or belly all the same.

Advantage can be gained however, in restricting the opponents movement in terms of footwork or bladework. Simply trapping the opponents blade for a second or a fraction thereof is all that may be required for a successfully placed thrust, all the while secure from your opponents offence.
Downturned dagger quillions firstly act as a check to stop the opponents blade sliding or bouncing off onto your own target at the moment of defence. Once the blade has entered here, a turn of the dagger in the hand can also momentarily lock the blade in place while your own attack is made.

I hope that this helps regarding practical function of main gauche dagger forms

Macdonald
www.macdonaldarms.com
http://www.historicalfencing.org/Mac...mory/index.htm

fearn · 8th May 2009, 04:19 AM

Gotta admit, I'm thinking that some of these (like that lantern shield) should be cross-posted in the "10 weirdest blades" thread....

F

VANDOO · 8th May 2009, 06:22 AM

I AGREE THESE WERE PROBELY FOR PARRYING THE OPPONENTS LONGER SWORD GIVING YOU A MOMENTARY OPENING FOR A LUNGE. IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT IT COULD BE TWISTED IN SUCH A WAY AS TO DISARM AN OPPONENT, A BLADE MIGHT SOMEHOW BE BROKEN BUT I DOUBT THAT WAS ITS MAIN PURPOSE. THE SPRING LOADED ONES MIGHT MAKE A GOOD DISTRACTION IF THE OPPONENT HAD NEVER SEEN ONE WHICH COULD ALSO LEAD TO AN OPENING. A PERSON WOULD ALWAYS BE VERY WARY OF SOME ODD LOOKING SPIKEY THING HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS OR WHAT IT COULD DO.
THE BLADE BREAKERS THAT I THINK COULD PERHAPS DAMMAGE AN OPPONENTS BLADE AND PERHAPS WEAKEN IT ENOUGH TO BREAK IN THE COURSE OF A BATTLE WERE THE GREATSWORDS. THE BLADE PROTRUSIONS ALSO SERVED AS A SECONDARY GAURD WHEN FIGHTING BUT IF A HARD STRIKE WAS DEFLECTED PROPERLY AND THE FULL FORCE FELL ON THE OPPONEMTS SWORD EDGE IT WOULD SURELY DO DAMMAGE. THE ZWEIHANDER IS ONE SUCH GERMAN SWORD.

Gavin Nugent · 8th May 2009, 06:23 AM

Great Discussion guys and some very valid historical references.

Personally, I do wonder if this name "Sword Breaker" has been taken out of context.
There is no denying that these are real weapons whether actually used or not remains to be proven absolutely. But for these daggers to break a sword of old I think not.

To my reckoning, the name is used out of context, I believe "sword breaker" to be breaking the path and application of the sword, not shattering the blade. They are after all its a parrying weapon and they do break the path of the on coming blade, be it catching in grooves on the blades or the guards.

My 2 cents and food for thought.

Gav

cornelistromp · 8th May 2009, 07:55 AM

OK the test

I made a test with my tooth sword breaker and a 1620 rapier.
I did not do the full break test yet

when the rapier blade is between the teeth, it is really easy to hold the blade firmly without any tension. if you change the angle a bit the rapier blade is in a fixed position. it is very difficult to pull it out.
I also do think that a thinner rapier blade can break if you make the right move with it.

however I do agree that the main purpose of the left hand "sword breaker"
is holding the opponents blade for making a counter attack.

re: spring dagger
with this dagger it is not possible to hold or to break a blade.
I think the use of this dagger is to increase the "blocking surface".

re: 2 Handers zweihander
I think we have to open a separate thread there are a lot of stories and statements about the use of this interesting sword.

regards from Holland

Paul Macdonald · 8th May 2009, 10:35 AM

A couple of lovely pieces there, thanks for sharing!

Regarding the zweihander langets, the primary function of these are to guard the hand when the sword grip is shortened (ie. one hand on grip, one hand on leather covered ricasso, which is more effective in close combat).

Stops you losing fingers

broadaxe · 8th May 2009, 12:06 PM

Hi folks, I'm glad I managed to hop on this super-fascinating thread. Weird enough, only last week I had given a small presentation regarding that book, Kombination Waffen and someone in the crowd talked about those so-called Sword Breakers that "could snap an opponent's blade with a flick of the wrist". I told him that this is impossible due the facts mentioned here earlier by Paul Macdonald.
I'm always for "experimental archaeology", for this I have a small educational collection. Among other things a trident-style Main Gauche. I tried to break (each in several places along the blade) the blades of a large rapier, smallsword, old style epee and a foil. Now, I'm a kind of a physical person and it is just impossible. The only thing came close to snapping was the foil, while was being bent at its last third by a tremendous effort.
For your amusement I found this link - check it from 3.30!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xmM...eature=related

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2009, 09:04 PM

This thread truly does continue to get gooder and gooder !

thanks to such fantastic participation from all you here!!

It is especially exciting to have the expertise of Maestro Paul MacDonald, whose eloquent explanations of the dynamics involved in actual sword combat and that perspective in the use of these intriguing anomalies.

Great input Vandoo, and well placed observations, especially on the parrying elements on these two handers!

Gav, absolutely outstanding thoughts on the application of the term "sword breaker', I had not thought of that possibility. It is often challenging to try to understand a term colloquially applied to a weapon in the parlance of the time and referring to its actual purpose.
I think a similar case for example would be the small Scottish dagger traditionally worn in the Highlanders stocking...the 'skean dubh'. The term 'dubh' (Gaelic =black, dark) has long been thought to suggest the darkened wood often seen in the hilts, and that were typically 'black'. Actually the term 'dubh' can also, from what I understand mean dark = unknown, or hidden or concealed. Apparantly this comes from these 'hideout' weapons being hidden from view. The Highlander, typically heavily armed, would relinquish his armoury in a visit to avoid personal affront, but always maintained 'backup' just in case!

I discovered some of this with the origins of my own name, McDougall.
Apparantly in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, = son of the 'dark' foreigner. Since the ancient ancestry is Norse, these ancestors were hardly likely to be 'dark', however, in those early times, it was certainly unclear often, exactly where they from. Holding true to my ancestry, some question what planet I am from !

It certainly does make sense that the main gauche would be intended to 'break' (impede) the attack of the other blade, and these elaborately featured daggers would not only be psychologically disturbing to an opponent , but would have good potential to 'hold' the blade.
Excellent perspective very much worthy of serious consideration and further research, possibly more evidence in contemporary material.

Sa'ar, its great to have you with us, and its great to have your observations from a fencers perspective, as I know you are very much involved in that pursuit, and very much in the historical perspective.

Cornelis, outstanding empirical approach, and thank you so much ....but please be careful with those magnificent pieces! Excellent illustrations that truly add to the effects of actual implementation, and well placed remarks to add to consideration as we evaluate the possibilities here.

This truly is becoming MYTHBUSTERS in weaponry!!!

Thank you gentlemen, so very much!!

Jim

8th May 2009, 06:22 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE THESE WERE PROBELY FOR PARRYING THE OPPONENTS LONGER SWORD GIVING YOU A MOMENTARY OPENING FOR A LUNGE. IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT IT COULD BE TWISTED IN SUCH A WAY AS TO DISARM AN OPPONENT, A BLADE MIGHT SOMEHOW BE BROKEN BUT I DOUBT THAT WAS ITS MAIN PURPOSE. THE SPRING LOADED ONES MIGHT MAKE A GOOD DISTRACTION IF THE OPPONENT HAD NEVER SEEN ONE WHICH COULD ALSO LEAD TO AN OPENING. A PERSON WOULD ALWAYS BE VERY WARY OF SOME ODD LOOKING SPIKEY THING HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS OR WHAT IT COULD DO. THE BLADE BREAKERS THAT I THINK COULD PERHAPS DAMMAGE AN OPPONENTS BLADE AND PERHAPS WEAKEN IT ENOUGH TO BREAK IN THE COURSE OF A BATTLE WERE THE GREATSWORDS. THE BLADE PROTRUSIONS ALSO SERVED AS A SECONDARY GAURD WHEN FIGHTING BUT IF A HARD STRIKE WAS DEFLECTED PROPERLY AND THE FULL FORCE FELL ON THE OPPONEMTS SWORD EDGE IT WOULD SURELY DO DAMMAGE. THE ZWEIHANDER IS ONE SUCH GERMAN SWORD. Attached Images

8th May 2009, 06:23 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hmm sword breakers Great Discussion guys and some very valid historical references. Personally, I do wonder if this name "Sword Breaker" has been taken out of context. There is no denying that these are real weapons whether actually used or not remains to be proven absolutely. But for these daggers to break a sword of old I think not. To my reckoning, the name is used out of context, I believe "sword breaker" to be breaking the path and application of the sword, not shattering the blade. They are after all its a parrying weapon and they do break the path of the on coming blade, be it catching in grooves on the blades or the guards. My 2 cents and food for thought. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 8th May 2009 at 08:55 AM.

8th May 2009, 07:55 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	swordbreaktest OK the test I made a test with my tooth sword breaker and a 1620 rapier. I did not do the full break test yet when the rapier blade is between the teeth, it is really easy to hold the blade firmly without any tension. if you change the angle a bit the rapier blade is in a fixed position. it is very difficult to pull it out. I also do think that a thinner rapier blade can break if you make the right move with it. however I do agree that the main purpose of the left hand "sword breaker" is holding the opponents blade for making a counter attack. re: spring dagger with this dagger it is not possible to hold or to break a blade. I think the use of this dagger is to increase the "blocking surface". re: 2 Handers zweihander I think we have to open a separate thread there are a lot of stories and statements about the use of this interesting sword. regards from Holland Attached Images

6th May 2009, 10:13 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Fun thread! I keep being reminded of the episode of Mythbusters where they attempted to cut a sword with a sword, and proved how difficult that feat was (basically, those movie shots of people cutting others' rapiers in half wouldn't work). Given that brute-force, edge on hacking of two swords against each other was insufficient in most cases to break either blade, I'd be real surprised if either the European or eastern sword-breakers actually lived up to their names. Rather, I think they're for grabbing and temporarily holding blades. That would give a small advantage to the person with the sword-breaker, and might justify the use of the weapon. It would also explain the damage seen. Just a thought, F

7th May 2009, 08:07 PM	#2
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi Folks, A good topic. If I may shed some light on the practical potential and effective use of these weapons... The legend of `swordbreakers` is one that has been repeated and accepted in history every bit as much as `blood-grooves`! Let us first look to the blades that these daggers are supposed to break. The `swordbreaking` daggers predominately date from the C17th, and are designed to be used in conjunction with and be facing the civilian rapier in single combat. Rapier blades of the C17th do vary in section, width and thickness, largely depending upon the fencing style it is designed for, or down to personal preference in size and weight. Regardless of width and thickness though, one essential standard prevails - that of quality of temper required for any rapier blade of practical use. The thickness of any one well made and tempered rapier blade will vary from forte to foible with distal taper, becoming thinner towards the point, but in a different manner to a broadsword blade. A broad or backsword blade is designed primarily to cut effectively and be light and fast in doing so. The distal taper therefore is pronounced, with many original blades tapering to a fraction of 1mm thick near the point. I have handled many originals where the blade steel tapers to the thickness no more than that of heavy paper or thin card. Steel this thin is effective for a cutting blade. A rapier blade is designed primarily to thrust and pierce. It is designed to be used for two combative scenarios - the pre-arranged duel and the street fight. In the street fight, that piercing blade must pierce the body efficiently through whatever clothing the opponent wears. A blade too thin here would be a liability. Some thickness of steel and hardness of temper is therefore required for a good rapier blade to pierce without overly flexing. Any well tempered and hardened blade is difficult to break without large amounts of leverage and pressure. Effective mechanical leverage relies upon some distance between point of contact (fulcrum) and the point where force is applied. For dagger examples where the quillions turn towards the point, then yes, these can effectively catch an opponents blade, but there is minimal distance from point of force (hand) and fulcrum. This combined with the fact that pommels and quillions are traditionally crafted in a softer working material than the weapon blade gives us combined elements of insufficient force of leverage and weaker material of construction. These do not give us practical dynamics with which to physically break a blade. Also martially speaking, there is no great advantage gained to breaking an opponents blade. A broken blade is never a blunt blade, but a sharp and jagged ended blade that is just as easily stuck through face or belly all the same. Advantage can be gained however, in restricting the opponents movement in terms of footwork or bladework. Simply trapping the opponents blade for a second or a fraction thereof is all that may be required for a successfully placed thrust, all the while secure from your opponents offence. Downturned dagger quillions firstly act as a check to stop the opponents blade sliding or bouncing off onto your own target at the moment of defence. Once the blade has entered here, a turn of the dagger in the hand can also momentarily lock the blade in place while your own attack is made. I hope that this helps regarding practical function of main gauche dagger forms Macdonald www.macdonaldarms.com http://www.historicalfencing.org/Mac...mory/index.htm

8th May 2009, 04:19 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Gotta admit, I'm thinking that some of these (like that lantern shield) should be cross-posted in the "10 weirdest blades" thread.... F

8th May 2009, 10:35 AM	#7
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	A couple of lovely pieces there, thanks for sharing! Regarding the zweihander langets, the primary function of these are to guard the hand when the sword grip is shortened (ie. one hand on grip, one hand on leather covered ricasso, which is more effective in close combat). Stops you losing fingers

8th May 2009, 12:06 PM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Hi folks, I'm glad I managed to hop on this super-fascinating thread. Weird enough, only last week I had given a small presentation regarding that book, Kombination Waffen and someone in the crowd talked about those so-called Sword Breakers that "could snap an opponent's blade with a flick of the wrist". I told him that this is impossible due the facts mentioned here earlier by Paul Macdonald. I'm always for "experimental archaeology", for this I have a small educational collection. Among other things a trident-style Main Gauche. I tried to break (each in several places along the blade) the blades of a large rapier, smallsword, old style epee and a foil. Now, I'm a kind of a physical person and it is just impossible. The only thing came close to snapping was the foil, while was being bent at its last third by a tremendous effort. For your amusement I found this link - check it from 3.30! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xmM...eature=related

8th May 2009, 09:04 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	This thread truly does continue to get gooder and gooder ! thanks to such fantastic participation from all you here!! It is especially exciting to have the expertise of Maestro Paul MacDonald, whose eloquent explanations of the dynamics involved in actual sword combat and that perspective in the use of these intriguing anomalies. Great input Vandoo, and well placed observations, especially on the parrying elements on these two handers! Gav, absolutely outstanding thoughts on the application of the term "sword breaker', I had not thought of that possibility. It is often challenging to try to understand a term colloquially applied to a weapon in the parlance of the time and referring to its actual purpose. I think a similar case for example would be the small Scottish dagger traditionally worn in the Highlanders stocking...the 'skean dubh'. The term 'dubh' (Gaelic =black, dark) has long been thought to suggest the darkened wood often seen in the hilts, and that were typically 'black'. Actually the term 'dubh' can also, from what I understand mean dark = unknown, or hidden or concealed. Apparantly this comes from these 'hideout' weapons being hidden from view. The Highlander, typically heavily armed, would relinquish his armoury in a visit to avoid personal affront, but always maintained 'backup' just in case! I discovered some of this with the origins of my own name, McDougall. Apparantly in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, = son of the 'dark' foreigner. Since the ancient ancestry is Norse, these ancestors were hardly likely to be 'dark', however, in those early times, it was certainly unclear often, exactly where they from. Holding true to my ancestry, some question what planet I am from ! It certainly does make sense that the main gauche would be intended to 'break' (impede) the attack of the other blade, and these elaborately featured daggers would not only be psychologically disturbing to an opponent , but would have good potential to 'hold' the blade. Excellent perspective very much worthy of serious consideration and further research, possibly more evidence in contemporary material. Sa'ar, its great to have you with us, and its great to have your observations from a fencers perspective, as I know you are very much involved in that pursuit, and very much in the historical perspective. Cornelis, outstanding empirical approach, and thank you so much ....but please be careful with those magnificent pieces! Excellent illustrations that truly add to the effects of actual implementation, and well placed remarks to add to consideration as we evaluate the possibilities here. This truly is becoming MYTHBUSTERS in weaponry!!! Thank you gentlemen, so very much!! Jim