Swordbreakers: A Myth ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fearn,
Thanks very much, and I wasn't aware the Japanese had these too.
Your note on the 'gadgetry' is well placed, as I've ravaged through references here, it would seem that these may well be another of those romanticized notions that have become emplaced in arms literature.

While I'm anxious as well to see if anyone out there has references to these actually being used, or knows of authentic examples, here are some notes on what I have found so far.



In the Wallace Collection (1962, Sir James Mann) #A867, and A868 are 'sword breakers'.
#867 (German c.1600) is described as having 14 deep teeth, each fitted with a spring catch which allow the blade to enter, but not withdraw. The teeth are separately wrought and brazed into the blade. Supposedly the blade would be easily broken with a turn of the wrist...? While it seems that many rapier blades were fragile, it seems also known that these blades were forged to withstand considerable forces, although certainly any flaw might compromise it.

#868 seems to be the example used in several references, one that I found was "Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World" H.L.Peterson, 1968, where it is shown as Plate 51. This example in the Wallace collection is shown as Italian c.1600 and states it is intended for use as a dagger.
It is noted in the text that this example has barbed heads on the teeth that work with springs also, and that the blade has been broken and repaired in the middle.

This brings the next observation. Would these deeply indented blades not be compromised themselves in trying to break a blade, let alone trying to thrust into an opponent?
Sir Richard Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1884, p.138) discusses the entire uselessness of toothed or serrated blades, in particular the toothed bayonet in which if successfully penetrated would become deeply lodged in the victim.
He illustrates several of these 'sword breakers' referring to them as 'so called' suggesting perhaps he questioned the veracity of that potential.

Burton was a well known and respected master of arms, and certainly must have known Egerton Castle, who wrote the following year and described these in the reference I previously cited, in which it is suggested unlikely these were ever used as such.

In "The Smallsword in England" (J.D.Aylward, 1945) the focus is obviously on the smallsword of the 18th century, and apparantly the use of the left hand dagger had fallen out of use in fencing in the 17th, however in his historical references to fencing, in particular disarming opponents, there is no mention whatsoever of the use of sword breakers. He does describe various methods of physical combat in disarming the opponent by grabbing blades etc.

Without a wide number of these unusual daggers being found in numerous collections, and corroborating contemporary description of thier use, it would seem that perhaps Castle may be right in questioning actual use of these.
As Fearn has noted with the Japanese examples, maybe this was just fanciful gadgetry.

Hopefully we can find more ,

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

This early 17th combined lantern shield left hand iron glove and sword catcher is at the Imperial Armory Vienna. It does not appear to be robust enough to actually call it a sword breaker, though.

Michael

[celtan]

Hi Jim et al,

Some of the japanese and chinese versions don't even look like a weapon, but more like a trinket, or a hair styling utensil, a comb...

Dojo Senseis and police often use an odd-looking stick called a Jute, but it's more a sign of rank and authority than anything else.

I'm following all the threads, but I haven't had anything interesting to contibute so far. I have always found difficult to believe that you can break a sword by catching it with a main-gauche and a mere flick of your wrist.

As a catcher-deflector cum stabbing weapon, the LHD is cumbersome for every day carry, but certainly a useful and very deadly weapon. Easy to thrust between the ribs.

Sword breaker? Nah..

Alas, they do look beautiful..!

: )

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Fearn,
Thanks very much, and I wasn't aware the Japanese had these too.
Your note on the 'gadgetry' is well placed, as I've ravaged through references here, it would seem that these may well be another of those romanticized notions that have become emplaced in arms literature.

While I'm anxious as well to see if anyone out there has references to these actually being used, or knows of authentic examples, here are some notes on what I have found so far.



In the Wallace Collection (1962, Sir James Mann) #A867, and A868 are 'sword breakers'.
#867 (German c.1600) is described as having 14 deep teeth, each fitted with a spring catch which allow the blade to enter, but not withdraw. The teeth are separately wrought and brazed into the blade. Supposedly the blade would be easily broken with a turn of the wrist...? While it seems that many rapier blades were fragile, it seems also known that these blades were forged to withstand considerable forces, although certainly any flaw might compromise it.

#868 seems to be the example used in several references, one that I found was "Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World" H.L.Peterson, 1968, where it is shown as Plate 51. This example in the Wallace collection is shown as Italian c.1600 and states it is intended for use as a dagger.
It is noted in the text that this example has barbed heads on the teeth that work with springs also, and that the blade has been broken and repaired in the middle.

This brings the next observation. Would these deeply indented blades not be compromised themselves in trying to break a blade, let alone trying to thrust into an opponent?
Sir Richard Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1884, p.138) discusses the entire uselessness of toothed or serrated blades, in particular the toothed bayonet in which if successfully penetrated would become deeply lodged in the victim.
He illustrates several of these 'sword breakers' referring to them as 'so called' suggesting perhaps he questioned the veracity of that potential.

Burton was a well known and respected master of arms, and certainly must have known Egerton Castle, who wrote the following year and described these in the reference I previously cited, in which it is suggested unlikely these were ever used as such.

In "The Smallsword in England" (J.D.Aylward, 1945) the focus is obviously on the smallsword of the 18th century, and apparantly the use of the left hand dagger had fallen out of use in fencing in the 17th, however in his historical references to fencing, in particular disarming opponents, there is no mention whatsoever of the use of sword breakers. He does describe various methods of physical combat in disarming the opponent by grabbing blades etc.

Without a wide number of these unusual daggers being found in numerous collections, and corroborating contemporary description of thier use, it would seem that perhaps Castle may be right in questioning actual use of these.
As Fearn has noted with the Japanese examples, maybe this was just fanciful gadgetry.

Hopefully we can find more ,

All the best,
Jim

[kisak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This brings the next observation. Would these deeply indented blades not be compromised themselves in trying to break a blade, let alone trying to thrust into an opponent?

First of all, I'm assuming that the European sword-breaker here is the "saw-like" ones, and not the trident main-gauche. (I have seen the latter described as a sword-breaker before, so it felt best to make sure we were all on the same page.)

The indentations, especially if not properly rounded off in the bottom, would certainly make for stress raisers, and thus weaknesses in the blade. I wonder if the torque of trying to break another blade might not be worse than the linear stress from a thrust though, but that's mostly speculation.

One possibility perhaps is that these sword-breakers are akin to many if the odd combination weapons lying around, ie more or conversation pieces and the smith showing off what he could do than anything seriously intended as a weapon? (I hope I'll never have to eat somewhere where flintlock cutlery would seem like a necessity.)

Also, in regards to so-called sword breakers in general, regardless of culture. These tend to have shapes which would be quite suitable for catching the opponents blade (as it'd be hard to break it otherwise). However, if you can catch and control your opponents blade for a moment, then breaking it might perhaps be unnecessary in many cases, in that you can then simply run him through instead (that supposedly often being the ultimate goal of it all). So while some rather exotic things may have been made with the intent of being good at catching the sword of an opponent, the idea that one should then break the opposing blade apart may have been slapped on later, at least in some cases.

Finally, I'd wonder a bit about the tempering about a sword which can be broken just by a twist of the wrist like that. Not having tried it I guess the leverage might be larger than I think, but it still strikes me as odd.

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim and all,

Please pe patient. I am tracking down a photo of a very stout and technically refined combined blade catcher and breaker at the collections of the Historic Museum Dresden and will post it as soon as possible.

I am sure it will add greatly to our discussion.

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Michael, now THERES a sword breaker, catcher, etc etc! It looks like there might have been an ancestor of James Bond's 'Q' working in the armouries! Thats excellent, thank you for posting that, and looking forward to the example you're searching for...if anybody knows thier way through these museums you do !

Manolo, your contributions and observations are always well placed and astute, and I cannot imagine anything you add not being of interest!
Its good to have perspective and opinion on items being discussed as we try to locate support either for or against the actual use of these items. I was not even aware of the Japanese items that Fearn brought up, so at this point they bring in interesting dimension to the discussion, even though the main focus is on these European left hand versions.

Kisak, excellent note on the expanding triple blade form, and I must admit I had forgotten to include that type as I was intent on the deeply toothed example. In the references I looked at, those were indeed mentioned, and included as a 'rare' type blade, just as the toothed version (Peterson).
Thank you for the confirmation on my thoughts on the compromising of blade strength on these toothed blades.
What brought that to mind was the blades from China and India which had pierced channels in the blade carrying movable 'pearls' (actually usually bearings) which caused noisemaking effect. It seems that Philip Tom had noted that these were likely parade or ceremonial swords or daggers as the 'worked' blades would have had thier strength compromised, so would not be advisable for combat.

I burst out laughing on the comments on flintlock cutlery!!! then as I read down...here you have posted some!!! LOL!! That 'Q' !! Relatives everywhere!

I have always been intrigued by combination weapons, and always recalled a book I had in my younger years titled appropriately "Firearms Curiosa" by Winant. It does seem of course that armourers and weapons makers often exercised thier innovative imaginations to the max!! In many, if not most cases, these were just as labeled...curiosities, and that was the reason I posted this thread, to discover the feasability of these 'swordbreakers'.

It does seem that if one of these blades, in which your very life hung in the balance in its quality, could be snapped with a flick of the wrist, that bladesmith would definitely have questions to be answered. If my understanding is correct, one of the purposes of bladesmiths marks, was to guarantee the quality of his work. The guilds monitored this, while of course the marks were used for other bureaucratic purposes as well, and presumably held these makers somewhat accountable.
It would be interesting to research town or guild records, in which bladesmiths had disclaimers posted against failure of thier blades caused by the 'foul play' of use of one of these devisive daggers.

Again, as far as is known, no corroborative contemporary mention is made of the use of these or any other device for breaking the blade of an opponent.
The existence of only a couple of these, and the question of thier veracity since the 19th century by well established authorities on arms, compells me to believe these.....along with considerable of weapons curiosa, whether ethnographic or European....are likely the works of earlier 'Q's, and inadvertantly intended to drive we later weapons historians mad!!!


Thanks so much guys!! Great observations and discussion,

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jim,

very interesting thread. I found 4 different types.
1. Spanish main gauche with short sword catchers.
2. the saw teeth with locker (cf Boccia see pic and wallace coll.)
3. the saw teeth without locker (see bannerman 1926 and my pic)
4. the massive eastern type. (my pic)

regards from Amsterdam

[Matchlock]

Great job, Cornelis, thank you!

Now let's add the Dresden piece which, as well as one of your Spanish items, clearly shows signs of hard employment as a broken tooth has been repaired by copper soldering. It was made in Italy in about 1585 and given to Christian I, Elector of Saxony, in 1587.

Please note that all these multifunctional items are actually combination weapons. In the case of the Dresden combined blade catcher and breaker, you can see little riveted swivelling stops at the entrances beween the teeth: once the opponent's blade was caught between two teeth the stop would immediately prevent it from been withdrawn, and it could be broken.

I add more of these combined edged weapons from various museums; they are all united in a highly recommendable book:

Heinz-Werner Lewerken: Kombinationswaffen des 15.-19. Jahrhunderts, Berlin, 1989, ISBN 3-327-00516-8.

Don't worry about the text being in German; the huge and detailed photos, as well as the datings and exact measurements, will be perfectly understood by everyone!
It comprises important items from the Met, The Royal Armouries Leeds, the German Historic Museum (DHM) Berlin and of course the Dresden museums.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Here's a link where to purchase numerous cheap copies of Kombinationswaffen at abebooks.com:

http://www.abebooks.de/servlet/Searc...waffen&x=0&y=0

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely fantastic you guys!!!!
This is exactly the kind of discussion and analysis I had hoped for

Questions like these have often been on my mind in years gone by. However, using the only resources typically at hand, as I have cited in my original post the results were at best, inconclusive. Any sort of sound analysis was unlikely without field study, clearly out of reach, or the opinions of many arms writers who often perpetuate those of earlier writers left only unresolved questions.

Finally, here we have international expertise with fantastic resources compiled into a wonderfully comprehensive forensic study of our topic!
The examples shared here by Michael and Cornelius from thier files are amazing and most of these I have never seen before.
Thank you both so much for posting all of these, and Michael, for such great detail, as well as the link to the combination weapons book.

Fernando, you are far too modest, and as I have always noted, you always come up with references from Portuguese resources, which have too often not been adequately represented in international historical exchange in altogether too many studies. You have always represented the key importance of Portugal well in your outstanding contributions, as well as your keen insight into the weapons.
Just as you have mentioned, the 'rompepuntas' is yet another fanciful interpretation devised by romantic writers it would seem, and a good example of this kind of perspective with weapons. I was not aware of the Portuguese influence noted with the trident type parrying weapon, but seems to make perfect sense.

I must say however, that with the numerous examples presented here by Cornelius and Michael, the evidence for at least some degree of actual use of these 'swordbreakers' seems compelling, especially with the evidence of damage in one or more. This of course admittedly may be the result of curious 'testing' or 'horseplay' with these in later years, but I note that here only as a matter of consideration.
The best evidence will be in finding contemporary records advocating or discussing the use of these in actual sword combat.

Thank you again guys, very very much!

All the best,
Jim