Pamorless keris (keleng)

David · 6th May 2009, 03:23 AM

Can someone please define tantingan?

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 04:14 AM

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

David · 6th May 2009, 04:21 AM

Thanks Alan.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

I haven't visit the Mangkunegaran museum yet, maybe next time.
The idea of opening this new thread is finding another opinion regarding my new keris.During my second year studying tke keris, I found it so hard to understand, learning about the dhapur, the material, specially the tangguh.
Alan, do you really have a suspicion this is a palembang keris? based on the sirah cecak shape and the gonjo?

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 04:36 AM

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

Thanks Alan, my first conclusion regarding this keris is ' it is a javanese' keris. I've made some discussion on this keris, and all of the opinion says this is a javanese keris. I always looking forward for your opinion, that's why I immediately brought this photos to this forum.
you're the first person to say that it might be a palembang keris. as you mention before 'they have always looked to have different material to this one' based on the keris material it self. most of my friends would tend to say this keris have a common material used in javanese kerises. the buntut urang is 2mm wide. about the nyebit rontal ganja, I would say this one do not have nyebit ron ganja. there is a trace of ri pandan indicate it has jalak tilam sari dhapur. a common dhapur in javanese keris.

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 05:31 AM

Yeah, might have been a tilam sari --- or it might not. I mentioned Palembang because it does have certain features that are similar to some Palembang I have seen, but Ferry, I don't think my qualification of my remarks is getting through:- I consider Palembang to be a very, very, very outside possibility, with really no hope of supporting this opinion, for the simple reason that this keris has been heavily cleaned over a long period of time, whereas the Palembang blades I have seen that are similar still had a bench finish on them. The feel and appearance of material changes over time, thus to compare pristine finish with heavily cleaned finish is not possible.

I 've said it previously, and I will say it again:- I cannot give an opinion on this keris from photographs; all I can do is agree to the visible characteristics and float a few possibilities.

I am not giving an opinion: I am suggesting that perhaps you might like to consider some possibilities other than HB.

You are the man who has it in his hand, it must be your decision.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 05:52 AM

thanks again Alan.

ferrylaki · 7th May 2009, 03:50 AM

I found a comparison palembang keris for our further discussion.
how do you think?

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2009, 04:43 AM

Looks like a nice keris.

BluErf · 9th May 2009, 03:56 AM

The anak alang above is very nice, but is rather unusual in the context of Palembang. Anak alang forms are more commonly found in Central Sumatra, worn by the Minangs, but even then, the anak alangs are of slightly different form and generally not as refined as this. Note that the hilt is new ivory, and the bit of sheath I can see on the top left corner seems to show a Palembang sampir's although it looks also a bit stiff. The hilt form does not match that sampir form. This in turn could suggest that this keris is a put together, and I do not rule out recent 'enhancements' to the keris. In which case, the use of this keris for comparison is not 'safe', in my opinion.

7th May 2009, 03:50 AM	#9
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	I found a comparison palembang keris for our further discussion. how do you think? Attached Images

7th May 2009, 04:43 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Looks like a nice keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 7th May 2009 at 06:43 AM. Reason: irrelevant

6th May 2009, 03:23 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Can someone please define tantingan?

6th May 2009, 04:14 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris. Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did. I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be. Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

6th May 2009, 04:21 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Thanks Alan.

6th May 2009, 04:36 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty. I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility. The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

6th May 2009, 05:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Yeah, might have been a tilam sari --- or it might not. I mentioned Palembang because it does have certain features that are similar to some Palembang I have seen, but Ferry, I don't think my qualification of my remarks is getting through:- I consider Palembang to be a very, very, very outside possibility, with really no hope of supporting this opinion, for the simple reason that this keris has been heavily cleaned over a long period of time, whereas the Palembang blades I have seen that are similar still had a bench finish on them. The feel and appearance of material changes over time, thus to compare pristine finish with heavily cleaned finish is not possible. I 've said it previously, and I will say it again:- I cannot give an opinion on this keris from photographs; all I can do is agree to the visible characteristics and float a few possibilities. I am not giving an opinion: I am suggesting that perhaps you might like to consider some possibilities other than HB. You are the man who has it in his hand, it must be your decision.

6th May 2009, 05:52 AM	#8
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	thanks again Alan.

9th May 2009, 03:56 AM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The anak alang above is very nice, but is rather unusual in the context of Palembang. Anak alang forms are more commonly found in Central Sumatra, worn by the Minangs, but even then, the anak alangs are of slightly different form and generally not as refined as this. Note that the hilt is new ivory, and the bit of sheath I can see on the top left corner seems to show a Palembang sampir's although it looks also a bit stiff. The hilt form does not match that sampir form. This in turn could suggest that this keris is a put together, and I do not rule out recent 'enhancements' to the keris. In which case, the use of this keris for comparison is not 'safe', in my opinion.