Pamorless keris (keleng)

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, I know you to be quite knowledgeable in the field of keris, you have this keris in your hand, and your opinion is that it is early HB.

However, I would ask you to consider this:-

is it legitimate to give a kraton based tangguh to a keris that is obviously of far less than kraton quality?

is it possible to give a supportable opinion in respect of tangguh when we are dealing with a keris that lacks many of the indicators that we would normally use to establish an opinion?

is it possible that we are looking at a keris that might be able to be categorised as Kajoran, or perhaps Godean --- or maybe, just maybe, Palembang?

I myself am not prepared to offer an opinion on this keris, simply because it is far too difficult to form an opinion from just a photo. I cannot accurately appraise the pawakan, I have no idea at all of the tanting, I cannot feel the texture, I cannot see if the ganja is sebit ron or nguceng mati, I do not know the form of the sirah cecak---its just too hard from a photo, especially for a blade like this.

What I think I can see is what appears to be a fairly substantial blade with a sharply defined ada-ada running full length of the blade, no kruwingan, a square blumbangan, a ganja with a mid line curve, but a small and harsh tungkakan. This is sufficient to point my mind along a certain road, but at the end of that road there are a number of gateways. I do not know from the photos which one to choose.

Hai Alan, I finally got your attention.
I define the tangguh to be early HB since its original warangka is a Jogjanese brangah. sorry I didnt include the warangka ini the picture.
I also understand its very hard to judge tangguh using photograph.
we must feel the surface, the tantingan, etc.
I try my best to provide these good pictures for us to discuss.
I rarely meet palembang keris. the last palembang keris I met is much much thicker with sharply defined ada-ada which is also running full lenght of the blade. using a kinatah gonjo, very beautiful keris ( a saw the keris 2 weeks ago) .

I hope this discussion would continue a bit longer. I really apreciate any opinion about this keris. I try my best to provide a decent keris to be discussed.
Hope that my Thread would become a usefull discussion material for all of us.
Thank you.

Ferrylaki

[David]

Can someone please define tantingan?

[A. G. Maisey]

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

[David]

Thanks Alan.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

I haven't visit the Mangkunegaran museum yet, maybe next time.
The idea of opening this new thread is finding another opinion regarding my new keris.During my second year studying tke keris, I found it so hard to understand, learning about the dhapur, the material, specially the tangguh.
Alan, do you really have a suspicion this is a palembang keris? based on the sirah cecak shape and the gonjo?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

Thanks Alan, my first conclusion regarding this keris is ' it is a javanese' keris. I've made some discussion on this keris, and all of the opinion says this is a javanese keris. I always looking forward for your opinion, that's why I immediately brought this photos to this forum.
you're the first person to say that it might be a palembang keris. as you mention before 'they have always looked to have different material to this one' based on the keris material it self. most of my friends would tend to say this keris have a common material used in javanese kerises. the buntut urang is 2mm wide. about the nyebit rontal ganja, I would say this one do not have nyebit ron ganja. there is a trace of ri pandan indicate it has jalak tilam sari dhapur. a common dhapur in javanese keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, might have been a tilam sari --- or it might not. I mentioned Palembang because it does have certain features that are similar to some Palembang I have seen, but Ferry, I don't think my qualification of my remarks is getting through:- I consider Palembang to be a very, very, very outside possibility, with really no hope of supporting this opinion, for the simple reason that this keris has been heavily cleaned over a long period of time, whereas the Palembang blades I have seen that are similar still had a bench finish on them. The feel and appearance of material changes over time, thus to compare pristine finish with heavily cleaned finish is not possible.

I 've said it previously, and I will say it again:- I cannot give an opinion on this keris from photographs; all I can do is agree to the visible characteristics and float a few possibilities.

I am not giving an opinion: I am suggesting that perhaps you might like to consider some possibilities other than HB.

You are the man who has it in his hand, it must be your decision.

[ferrylaki]

I found a comparison palembang keris for our further discussion.
how do you think?

[A. G. Maisey]

Looks like a nice keris.