Pakem and Keris

Jussi M. · 3rd May 2009, 09:07 PM

Thank you Mr. Maisey, I think the logic you have applied to this matter is impenetrable. I would like to ask what do the persons on this forum who have first hand experience in dealing with both people from Western cultures as well as those living in Javanese culture think as the most difficult aspects for a Westerner to grasp regarding the Javanese culture? - I acknowledge the question is pretty widespread on how it can be interpreted but then again so is the phenomena we are discussing also. I gather there are no "right" answers to this question nevertheless I am certain there must be some aspects regarding the Javanese culture that are more difficult for an Westerner to accept and realize than most.

So, what cultural aspects do lay dormant in plane sight under the camouflage of more visible layers of the Javanese culture from the Westerners standpoint?

Boy, I do hope I am not the only one interested on these things? - Based on how busy this thread has been it seems like this place is turning onto an internet version of the dialogue between the brothers in Rainman

Thanks,

J.

Sajen · 3rd May 2009, 09:36 PM

Dear Jussi,
only one short story to this. Some years ago I've been in Surabaya by a friend (not javanese, he is from Madura) and bought some keris by him. I reach him with a taxi and let wait the taxi driver in the front of the house. Later when we sit again inside the taxi the driver ask me what I buy over there. I take out one keris (I am sitting with my wife in the back) and show him the keris. He nearly have had an eccident because he so frightened by seeing the keris and get a gooseflesh. My wife, she is also Indonesian, told me to take away the keris. The complete time when we sitting inside the taxi he told me storys about the magic of keris. I have underestimated the credence of the magic from keris by Indonesian people complete.
sajen

A. G. Maisey · 4th May 2009, 12:27 AM

What a beautiful question Jussi!

But I am not going post a single response or comment in respect of this question.

You know, it may be quite educational to invite comments from our members who are of one Asian cultural heritage or another in respect of their perspective of western cultures. This could possibly tell you more about what you would like to know than direct responses to your original question will tell you.

Rick · 4th May 2009, 09:12 PM

Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?

Jussi M. · 4th May 2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Jussi,
Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?

No, but I have a vision I soon will

Thanks Rick, much appreciated!

J.

David · 5th May 2009, 02:23 PM

I must strongly second the Weiner book. Of course this book deals with Bali, not Jawa, but i think it will open up a few avenues of thought for you Jussi.

rasdan · 8th May 2009, 07:51 PM

This will not answer the questions in this thread, just my 0.2 cents and I won’t be able to defense a lot of this. Most likely I am blinded by my own culture’s view on keris.

I think, the keris before Islam started out as a weapon and then evolved into an object with dual function which is a weapon and a symbol to god’s permission to somebody to have something i.e. power, safety etc.

Since it is still a weapon, it would meant differently to different groups. This probably why the keris is referred to using a lot of different names in the old manuscripts as Alan had pointed out in previous threads. To a king it may be first and foremost a symbol; a source of power (power to rule)– like the legislation if you like, but to “Leroy Brown” (not the athlete), it is just a weapon that he purchased from the market. So, the difference is probably the rituals in the making and who makes the keris. What sort of rituals at that time, I have no idea.

It is not similar to the Christian’s cross as the keris is not a general symbol and to a certain extent it is kind of being “worshipped” in order to maintain the permission that had been granted. However, the source of power not necessarily be the keris. And hence sajen’s are not unique to the keris- it can also be an offering to the guardian of the sea if the “source of power” is from there. Meaning that the keris can serve and symbolises different “permissions” as well. To differentiate the purpose of a keris, different dhapurs are introduced with different rituals and of course, different shapes. It is these “permissions” that were later being passed on as Pusakas.

I don’t know if the current rituals exists in Hindu times, but from what I can see, the rituals such as giving sajen like incense, using specific colors and all that are closely related to Hinduism. When Islam came Hinduisme is absorbed into the culture which then are considered as mysticism.

As court culture spreads, the concept of “permission” is being used by the general public as well with the addition of some other beliefs that came from a lot of people. (This is probably where the sheer amount of mysticism –flying keris and such; were added to the keris) and perhaps by this time Islam is widespread the permission concept evolves into the concept of tuah.

Apart from the amount of costs that can be put into a making of a keris, the tuah concepts also contributes to its increased value and when money kicks in, all sort of “valued added” qualities were added to increase the price and everything needs to be re-examined to evaluate quality.

The problem is to put a timeline of the above.

Bill M · 3rd January 2019, 11:14 AM

Interesting thread. Especially Jussi M remarks. While I understand that each cultures have underlying common denominators. That point to a "hardwire" basic beliefs that are common.

I am most interested in the underlying spiritual aspects in humankind. It can be confusing seeing the "jumble".

Perhaps there are corollaries between a keris and a crucifix, but go deeper from a wider perspective. Try to go beyond the words, the chalk, the blackboard - and to the underlying syncretism of the concepts.

You may look at a voodoo altar. Often there are many Catholic objects, saints, incense, items 'borrowed' from Catholicism because there are underlying aspects that can be very similar if you dig deeper.

You may not understand a Chinese concept of Chinese Heaven, unless you are Chinese, but they have a 'Heaven'. All humans are hardwired into their concept of "heaven".

There are a few subjects that merit digging deeper.

Spirituality
Philosophy
Sex
Oil

3rd May 2009, 09:07 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Thank you Mr. Maisey, I think the logic you have applied to this matter is impenetrable. I would like to ask what do the persons on this forum who have first hand experience in dealing with both people from Western cultures as well as those living in Javanese culture think as the most difficult aspects for a Westerner to grasp regarding the Javanese culture? - I acknowledge the question is pretty widespread on how it can be interpreted but then again so is the phenomena we are discussing also. I gather there are no "right" answers to this question nevertheless I am certain there must be some aspects regarding the Javanese culture that are more difficult for an Westerner to accept and realize than most. So, what cultural aspects do lay dormant in plane sight under the camouflage of more visible layers of the Javanese culture from the Westerners standpoint? Boy, I do hope I am not the only one interested on these things? - Based on how busy this thread has been it seems like this place is turning onto an internet version of the dialogue between the brothers in Rainman Thanks, J. Last edited by Jussi M.; 3rd May 2009 at 09:48 PM.

3rd May 2009, 09:36 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Dear Jussi, only one short story to this. Some years ago I've been in Surabaya by a friend (not javanese, he is from Madura) and bought some keris by him. I reach him with a taxi and let wait the taxi driver in the front of the house. Later when we sit again inside the taxi the driver ask me what I buy over there. I take out one keris (I am sitting with my wife in the back) and show him the keris. He nearly have had an eccident because he so frightened by seeing the keris and get a gooseflesh. My wife, she is also Indonesian, told me to take away the keris. The complete time when we sitting inside the taxi he told me storys about the magic of keris. I have underestimated the credence of the magic from keris by Indonesian people complete. sajen

4th May 2009, 12:27 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	What a beautiful question Jussi! But I am not going post a single response or comment in respect of this question. You know, it may be quite educational to invite comments from our members who are of one Asian cultural heritage or another in respect of their perspective of western cultures. This could possibly tell you more about what you would like to know than direct responses to your original question will tell you.

4th May 2009, 09:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Jussi, Have you read Visible and Invisible Realms by Weiner ?

5th May 2009, 02:23 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	I must strongly second the Weiner book. Of course this book deals with Bali, not Jawa, but i think it will open up a few avenues of thought for you Jussi.

8th May 2009, 07:51 PM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	This will not answer the questions in this thread, just my 0.2 cents and I won’t be able to defense a lot of this. Most likely I am blinded by my own culture’s view on keris. I think, the keris before Islam started out as a weapon and then evolved into an object with dual function which is a weapon and a symbol to god’s permission to somebody to have something i.e. power, safety etc. Since it is still a weapon, it would meant differently to different groups. This probably why the keris is referred to using a lot of different names in the old manuscripts as Alan had pointed out in previous threads. To a king it may be first and foremost a symbol; a source of power (power to rule)– like the legislation if you like, but to “Leroy Brown” (not the athlete), it is just a weapon that he purchased from the market. So, the difference is probably the rituals in the making and who makes the keris. What sort of rituals at that time, I have no idea. It is not similar to the Christian’s cross as the keris is not a general symbol and to a certain extent it is kind of being “worshipped” in order to maintain the permission that had been granted. However, the source of power not necessarily be the keris. And hence sajen’s are not unique to the keris- it can also be an offering to the guardian of the sea if the “source of power” is from there. Meaning that the keris can serve and symbolises different “permissions” as well. To differentiate the purpose of a keris, different dhapurs are introduced with different rituals and of course, different shapes. It is these “permissions” that were later being passed on as Pusakas. I don’t know if the current rituals exists in Hindu times, but from what I can see, the rituals such as giving sajen like incense, using specific colors and all that are closely related to Hinduism. When Islam came Hinduisme is absorbed into the culture which then are considered as mysticism. As court culture spreads, the concept of “permission” is being used by the general public as well with the addition of some other beliefs that came from a lot of people. (This is probably where the sheer amount of mysticism –flying keris and such; were added to the keris) and perhaps by this time Islam is widespread the permission concept evolves into the concept of tuah. Apart from the amount of costs that can be put into a making of a keris, the tuah concepts also contributes to its increased value and when money kicks in, all sort of “valued added” qualities were added to increase the price and everything needs to be re-examined to evaluate quality. The problem is to put a timeline of the above.

3rd January 2019, 11:14 AM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Interesting thread. Especially Jussi M remarks. While I understand that each cultures have underlying common denominators. That point to a "hardwire" basic beliefs that are common. I am most interested in the underlying spiritual aspects in humankind. It can be confusing seeing the "jumble". Perhaps there are corollaries between a keris and a crucifix, but go deeper from a wider perspective. Try to go beyond the words, the chalk, the blackboard - and to the underlying syncretism of the concepts. You may look at a voodoo altar. Often there are many Catholic objects, saints, incense, items 'borrowed' from Catholicism because there are underlying aspects that can be very similar if you dig deeper. You may not understand a Chinese concept of Chinese Heaven, unless you are Chinese, but they have a 'Heaven'. All humans are hardwired into their concept of "heaven". There are a few subjects that merit digging deeper. Spirituality Philosophy Sex Oil