Popularity of 'katar' shapes?

Lew · 30th April 2009, 05:47 AM

Katars blade geometry are really not conducive to slashing the last few inches of the blade are quite thick with no real edge. The reason you see more straight blades is that they were more functional at punching through chain mail. A curved blade would be pretty useless against chain mail. I have seen a few curved ones but with a slight upswept blade that could still be used to pierce armor.

Lew

KuKulzA28 · 30th April 2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Katars blade geometry are really not conducive to slashing the last few inches of the blade are quite thick with no real edge. The reason you see more straight blades is that they were more functional at punching through chain mail.

Thanks, but still, that confuses me.... why practice a lot of slashing moves when your main move is a punch? Is it because many went without armor of any sort (in the areas where slashes were practiced)? Is hacking away at the opponent just a way to overwhelm his defense and go in for the jab, or a throw followed up by a finishing punch...?

KuKulzA28 · 12th May 2009, 08:35 PM

Here's another picture of a Kalaripayattu training place with curved katars

It seems more common than straight ones. Granted this is kalaripyattu, a martial art from Kerala. Perhaps the people of northern and central India used straight katars more? I say this because in all the searching I have done on Shastar Vidiya and Gatka have come up with mainly straight dagger-like katars.

Check the videos near the bottom of page

It appears to be used by Nidar Singh Nihang (along with another dagger) as a "main-gauche" of sorts. It seems like a good close-quarters and bridging weapon in combination with a sword. On the battlefield it was probably secondary to longer ranged weapons like spears, bows, swords, and matchlocks.
I imagine in the old days, in city streets and alleys, a katar alone would be a formidable close-in fighting weapon in a martial world with a plethora of knives, daggers, claws, fighting bracelets, etc.

KuKulzA28 · 17th July 2009, 09:26 PM

bump in case any jamdhar or Indian weaponry specialist comes along

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 10:23 PM

While extremely limited in my understanding of most martial arts, the katar is a most interesting weapon, which we have discussed considerably over the years. It seems that the armour piercing (malle perce) feature of strengthed tip is considered more prevalent in areas to the north where chain mail was more typically present. In the central and southern regions, such armour, while certainly nominally present, was not as common, so armour piercing weapons were not typical either.

The katar itself, much as the pata, its sword length counterpart, the gauntlet sword, was initially and more commonly a slashing weapon. The Mahrattas, one of the earlier groups generally held to have been among the earliest users of these weapons, are known for thier slashing preference with edged weapons, and typically were against the use of the thrust.

It is my understanding that among the earliest katars, especially those in Mahratta regions to the west, cut down European blades were used in them. While straight blades of course, they certainly would not have been for armour piercing any more than the original sword blade was, and the slashing cuts probably parallel to any other straight blades use.

I havent looked further into notes on these curved blade examples yet, but I would be inclined to think of them as to the northwest, and perhaps favored as a hunting type weapon. It is known that in these regions, among Mughals and Rajputs, to hunt tigers etc. with the katar was a pronounced mark of bravery, and the curved, uptick blade is in my understanding for a thrust and upward tear.
OTH, the curved blade as seen it seems in the slashing sense does, in the same effect as a sabre in providing more cutting surface in the movement of the cut.
Just cursory thoughts, and I hope they might be of some use.

All the best,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 18th July 2009, 06:30 AM

Thanks. It is interesting you note regional armor-usage and Mahratta preference for slashing in their fighting, I'll keep those two things in mind as I keep looking at different katars!

It's just fascinating to see how different Indian martial arts use the same type of weapon very differently...

ariel · 18th July 2009, 03:25 PM

The manner of holding katars as well as their frequent feature of reinforced tips ostensibly suggests exclusively ( or, at least, mainly) stabbing purpose. However, their long relative, Pata, was an exclusively slashing weapon. Jim is also correct in pointing out the widespread use of european blades,- thin and flexible, with (often) rounded tips, not suitable for stabbing, especially through the armor.
As a matter of fact, katars are quite handy slashing weapons: just grab one and try :-)
Even if their original purpose was stabbing ( see Elgood's book with photographs of statues), it was inevitable for their slashing ability to be emphasized in the creation of curved blades.

17th July 2009, 10:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	While extremely limited in my understanding of most martial arts, the katar is a most interesting weapon, which we have discussed considerably over the years. It seems that the armour piercing (malle perce) feature of strengthed tip is considered more prevalent in areas to the north where chain mail was more typically present. In the central and southern regions, such armour, while certainly nominally present, was not as common, so armour piercing weapons were not typical either. The katar itself, much as the pata, its sword length counterpart, the gauntlet sword, was initially and more commonly a slashing weapon. The Mahrattas, one of the earlier groups generally held to have been among the earliest users of these weapons, are known for thier slashing preference with edged weapons, and typically were against the use of the thrust. It is my understanding that among the earliest katars, especially those in Mahratta regions to the west, cut down European blades were used in them. While straight blades of course, they certainly would not have been for armour piercing any more than the original sword blade was, and the slashing cuts probably parallel to any other straight blades use. I havent looked further into notes on these curved blade examples yet, but I would be inclined to think of them as to the northwest, and perhaps favored as a hunting type weapon. It is known that in these regions, among Mughals and Rajputs, to hunt tigers etc. with the katar was a pronounced mark of bravery, and the curved, uptick blade is in my understanding for a thrust and upward tear. OTH, the curved blade as seen it seems in the slashing sense does, in the same effect as a sabre in providing more cutting surface in the movement of the cut. Just cursory thoughts, and I hope they might be of some use. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th July 2009 at 10:59 AM.

30th April 2009, 05:47 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Katars blade geometry are really not conducive to slashing the last few inches of the blade are quite thick with no real edge. The reason you see more straight blades is that they were more functional at punching through chain mail. A curved blade would be pretty useless against chain mail. I have seen a few curved ones but with a slight upswept blade that could still be used to pierce armor. Lew

12th May 2009, 08:35 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Here's another picture of a Kalaripayattu training place with curved katars It seems more common than straight ones. Granted this is kalaripyattu, a martial art from Kerala. Perhaps the people of northern and central India used straight katars more? I say this because in all the searching I have done on Shastar Vidiya and Gatka have come up with mainly straight dagger-like katars. Check the videos near the bottom of page It appears to be used by Nidar Singh Nihang (along with another dagger) as a "main-gauche" of sorts. It seems like a good close-quarters and bridging weapon in combination with a sword. On the battlefield it was probably secondary to longer ranged weapons like spears, bows, swords, and matchlocks. I imagine in the old days, in city streets and alleys, a katar alone would be a formidable close-in fighting weapon in a martial world with a plethora of knives, daggers, claws, fighting bracelets, etc.

17th July 2009, 09:26 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	bump in case any jamdhar or Indian weaponry specialist comes along

18th July 2009, 06:30 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks. It is interesting you note regional armor-usage and Mahratta preference for slashing in their fighting, I'll keep those two things in mind as I keep looking at different katars! It's just fascinating to see how different Indian martial arts use the same type of weapon very differently...

18th July 2009, 03:25 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The manner of holding katars as well as their frequent feature of reinforced tips ostensibly suggests exclusively ( or, at least, mainly) stabbing purpose. However, their long relative, Pata, was an exclusively slashing weapon. Jim is also correct in pointing out the widespread use of european blades,- thin and flexible, with (often) rounded tips, not suitable for stabbing, especially through the armor. As a matter of fact, katars are quite handy slashing weapons: just grab one and try :-) Even if their original purpose was stabbing ( see Elgood's book with photographs of statues), it was inevitable for their slashing ability to be emphasized in the creation of curved blades.