PARANG PANDIT

VVV · 28th April 2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

...What is the approximate age of each?

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

migueldiaz · 28th April 2009, 04:21 PM

Hi Michael and Dajak,

Thanks for the pics and the info!

What would be the theory or speculation behind the bifurcated end of the sword? Am very much interested in knowing what the hypotheses are!

Thanks in advance ...

Maurice · 28th April 2009, 04:42 PM

Hi Michael,

Great examples. I especially like the carvings on the scabbard of pandat 3.
But why do you think the scabbard is made so long (according to the blade) and "kinked" at the end?
Or do you think it was just a "fashion" thing at that time or characteristic by the carver, just like te protrusion the pandat scabbard you depicted earlier in this same thread could be?

I think your advantage by having this larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings....

Kind regards,
Maurice

Sajen · 28th April 2009, 04:50 PM

Hello Michael,

great finds. Unfortunately I don't have a Pandat to show!

sajen

VVV · 28th April 2009, 07:50 PM

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

asomotif · 28th April 2009, 11:33 PM

Hello Michael,

Nice examples.
I like the theory by Maurice :

PHP Code:


			
larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings

But could there be Taiwan/Paiwan influences on the scabbard shape / length ?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=paiwan

Best regards,
Willem

fearn · 29th April 2009, 04:50 AM

Hi Willem,

When you compare the baiwan and the dayak blades, I think you might be seeing echoes of a shared ancestral culture.

The archeologists and linguisted showed that the ancestral Indonesian/Polynesian culture originated in Taiwan, spread south through Indonesia, then west along the coasts into Polynesia.

These cultures share motifs of canoes, headhunting, and similar. One can see the canoe prow both in the scabbards and in the tips of some of the swords. I suspect it's supposed to be the silhouette of a war canoe in all of these blades, although I'm not sure exactly why.

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet, and I'd love to know what it's like to hit something with it. All that square-edged metal in the handle might be painful.

F

migueldiaz · 29th April 2009, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.

Hi Fearn. If they like the Moros and other Phil. ethnic groups venerated also the croc, then that must be it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet ...

And what would be the other nine?

migueldiaz · 29th April 2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

Thanks Michael for the comments.

For a while, I thought we have here a possible lead on the origin of the similarly bifurcated blade tip of the kampilan.

Thanks just the same for the response!

Maurice · 29th April 2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours...

Michael

So it is just as my purse.
I have a very large purse (like the mine is bigger as yours thing), but don't look into it.
By the way it is made by onionleather. Every time when I look in it I have to cry...

Gavin Nugent · 29th April 2009, 08:08 PM

Gents, this is one thread I am finding very interesting.

Would this image I have presented fall into the same area of discussion or is it a totally different animal?

Gav

VVV · 29th April 2009, 09:19 PM

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

kai · 30th April 2009, 12:32 AM

Congrats, Michael, those are great examples!

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 30th April 2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'd love to share more of it for all to see but it is for sale and I believe it is a breach of forum protocols to openly discuss items for sale. I will be more than happy to engage in private correspondence about this wonderful piece and supply images to all interested parties. I knew it was quite unusual and what I consider very rare but I honestly thought it was just a gorgeous version of the Land Dayak weapon and I thought to offer it up as comparison.

thanks

Gav

Mytribalworld · 9th May 2009, 03:51 PM

[QUOTE=VVV]Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.

( but is sometimes still watching, isn't it Ben?)

Mytribalworld · 9th May 2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Nice examples again ! I have a old book that where the writer ( 1865) describes the use of the parang latok, In my opinion close related to the pandat. At first he mentioned that the sword was a Malay influence and was already in disuse for warlike purpose course blades from europe where imported which where cheaper.

Interesting is that he explaines the use ( parang latok) as beiing used at two different ways. The one for small jobs like chopping wood,where they hold the sword in the nick of the blade for a better grip.
The other way is for an very effective blow where you use the blade in his full length and first slash the blade into the wound and then pull the entire length trough the wound which maybe explain why the handle is that simple.
The sword has to be taken between the fingers when pulling trough the wound. I can also imagine that a head can be chopped off with one blow that way.

Your pandat with the holes drilled in it can be very old I think and I see some similarity with designs of the malay Anak Wali ( see spirit of wood) so maybe closer to the source? ( just a guess)

Arjan.

VVV · 10th May 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

(snip) Your pandat with the holes drilled in it can be very old I think and I see some similarity with designs of the malay Anak Wali ( see spirit of wood) so maybe closer to the source? ( just a guess)

Arjan.

Hi Arjan,

Thanks for the description on the use of the Land Dayak swords.
I don't get the resemblence with an Anak Wali however?
Please develop this idea when you find time.

Michael

asomotif · 1st March 2011, 11:51 PM

ca. 1875 picture/drawing. studio made

tom hyle · 9th March 2011, 12:07 AM

OMG what a cool sword!!!!! I have so much to say I'm liable to forget 1/2 of it plus I'm in a room with friends to distract me.
OMG OMG OMG
OK
OK calm down, Tom!
Beautiful swords!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
OMG!!!!!!!

When cutting with parang latok/parang lading, as with other swords that curve, bend, or lean back (kilij is particularly similar, while this is often spoken/written of in N America in reference to Japanese swords) the back-wards angle to the blade causes it to pull thru the target with a slashlike action, even when the hand action is a simple "hack".

Battara · 10th March 2011, 03:26 AM

Wonderful pieces!

STill don't understand how they were used however.

asomotif · 11th March 2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
.

Yes they indeed do resemble the naga swords, after I found a (rare) example on Oriental arms. But I do'nt know if there is a connection between these regions.

tom hyle · 13th March 2011, 05:19 AM

In both cases there is a certain resemblance to swords from the same nations with more ordinary hilts (ie. Parang latok/lading and Naga Dao). In both cases, not only is the handle made of iron/steel, and integral to the blade, but there is the addition of the crossguard, and also in both cases there is an altered step-down or offset to the transition from blade to grip.
I think something is going on here; are these all high status/ritual swords? They seem it?.......

Coming in from the side, appropos of nothin; the sharply rectangular cross-section of the grip is reminiscent of that on "machete Phillipiana" (spelling?)
But is the grip on the Naga one rectangular, too? It looks more comfortably rounded?

Mytribalworld · 13th March 2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

OMG what a cool sword!!!!! I have so much to say I'm liable to forget 1/2 of it plus I'm in a room with friends to distract me.
OMG OMG OMG
OK
OK calm down, Tom!
Beautiful swords!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
OMG!!!!!!!

When cutting with parang latok/parang lading, as with other swords that curve, bend, or lean back (kilij is particularly similar, while this is often spoken/written of in N America in reference to Japanese swords) the back-wards angle to the blade causes it to pull thru the target with a slashlike action, even when the hand action is a simple "hack".

In overall shape there's seems to be a relation between the Naga sword and the Borneo pandat.
In use the Nagasword is for me,( I just exercised with it) the most ergonomic type. It wouldn't suprise me if the bone or antler top at the pandat handle was actually once of iron( for both hand use) but developped later to smaller proportions.
There seems relation between the Naga and Indonesian tribes and there are comparables in their culture like headhunting, feast of merit,megaliths,Y-posts,tattooing etc

Arjan

tom hyle · 11th June 2011, 06:32 AM

I found out that pandit is a Hindoo priest or religious instructor of some kind.

28th April 2009, 11:33 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Hello Michael, Nice examples. I like the theory by Maurice : PHP Code: `larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings` But could there be Taiwan/Paiwan influences on the scabbard shape / length ? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=paiwan Best regards, Willem

29th April 2009, 08:08 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Very interesting Gents, this is one thread I am finding very interesting. Would this image I have presented fall into the same area of discussion or is it a totally different animal? Gav Attached Images

1st March 2011, 11:51 PM	#18
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	ca. 1875 picture/drawing. studio made Attached Images

9th March 2011, 12:07 AM	#19
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OMG what a cool sword!!!!! I have so much to say I'm liable to forget 1/2 of it plus I'm in a room with friends to distract me. OMG OMG OMG OK OK calm down, Tom! Beautiful swords! I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those? What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried? Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas? OMG!!!!!!! When cutting with parang latok/parang lading, as with other swords that curve, bend, or lean back (kilij is particularly similar, while this is often spoken/written of in N America in reference to Japanese swords) the back-wards angle to the blade causes it to pull thru the target with a slashlike action, even when the hand action is a simple "hack". Last edited by tom hyle; 9th March 2011 at 02:50 PM.

28th April 2009, 04:21 PM	#2
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Hi Michael and Dajak, Thanks for the pics and the info! What would be the theory or speculation behind the bifurcated end of the sword? Am very much interested in knowing what the hypotheses are! Thanks in advance ...

28th April 2009, 04:42 PM	#3
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Hi Michael, Great examples. I especially like the carvings on the scabbard of pandat 3. But why do you think the scabbard is made so long (according to the blade) and "kinked" at the end? Or do you think it was just a "fashion" thing at that time or characteristic by the carver, just like te protrusion the pandat scabbard you depicted earlier in this same thread could be? I think your advantage by having this larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings.... Kind regards, Maurice

28th April 2009, 04:50 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Michael, great finds. Unfortunately I don't have a Pandat to show! sajen

28th April 2009, 07:50 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum. It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip. I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly. So I assume it's a prestige thing? Like mine is longer than yours... Michael

29th April 2009, 04:50 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Willem, When you compare the baiwan and the dayak blades, I think you might be seeing echoes of a shared ancestral culture. The archeologists and linguisted showed that the ancestral Indonesian/Polynesian culture originated in Taiwan, spread south through Indonesia, then west along the coasts into Polynesia. These cultures share motifs of canoes, headhunting, and similar. One can see the canoe prow both in the scabbards and in the tips of some of the swords. I suspect it's supposed to be the silhouette of a war canoe in all of these blades, although I'm not sure exactly why. As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure. Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet, and I'd love to know what it's like to hit something with it. All that square-edged metal in the handle might be painful. F

29th April 2009, 09:19 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Gav, Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon. However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe. Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread. Michael

30th April 2009, 12:32 AM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Congrats, Michael, those are great examples! Regards, Kai

9th May 2009, 03:51 PM	#15
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	[QUOTE=VVV]Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum. ( but is sometimes still watching, isn't it Ben?)

10th March 2011, 03:26 AM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Wonderful pieces! STill don't understand how they were used however.

13th March 2011, 05:19 AM	#22
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In both cases there is a certain resemblance to swords from the same nations with more ordinary hilts (ie. Parang latok/lading and Naga Dao). In both cases, not only is the handle made of iron/steel, and integral to the blade, but there is the addition of the crossguard, and also in both cases there is an altered step-down or offset to the transition from blade to grip. I think something is going on here; are these all high status/ritual swords? They seem it?....... Coming in from the side, appropos of nothin; the sharply rectangular cross-section of the grip is reminiscent of that on "machete Phillipiana" (spelling?) But is the grip on the Naga one rectangular, too? It looks more comfortably rounded?

11th June 2011, 06:32 AM	#24
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I found out that pandit is a Hindoo priest or religious instructor of some kind.