Curious spear-head

Jake · 27th April 2009, 05:40 PM

The unacceptabilty of iron as the material for the harvesting of game,mentioned in Mr.McDougall's post above,strikes me as germaine to the entire question of the scarcity of iron in the circumpolar North.
There's a very significant spiritual element that was attached to iron and it's uses,well,just about everywhere.Most Siberian artifacts that i have seen(the photos of) were articles belonging to the shaman,who also invariably doubled as a blacksmith.

In Russian,there's a curious etymology of the word for the bear spear specifically:"rogatina",meaning a forked part of a tree-trunk.Even though for centuries the bear spears were forged iron(and not forked),typical is the one below(the photo seems to have lost it's rightful owner in it's kicking about the internet,and often is used as a generic type of a Russian bear-spear).

Also,the Russian Far East is an unexplored trove of various metallic artifacts.The other photo was posted by a friend on one of the forums,it is a table of a junk vendor in the Habarovsk region.The objects are pilfered from the burial mounds in the area by the economically strapped(to put it mildly)population.In the forground is a small meteorite,also unlawful to posess under the RF laws.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2009, 10:21 PM

Thanks very much Jake, and I'm really glad you posted this. I have always thought the culture and weaponry of these northern regions is completely fascinating, and its good to have someone as well versed in the subject of metallurgy and blacksmithing as you are with us. There are a number of members out there very active in this art, and I hope they will enter in on the thread.

I appreciate the links and mention of the articles , and very much appreciate the detail you include in the text of your posts. You have rekindled my interest in the study of these cultures, and another great title that carries some great material on this:
"Crossroads of Continents: Cultures of Siberia and Alaska"
William W. Fitzhugh , 1988, Smithsonian

I think the superstitions with iron and that blacksmithing was often done by shaman is an extremely intriguing practice often the case in many cultures.
In the Sahara, the Tuareg blacksmiths are virtually a separate cultural group, and in many tribal cultures in Africa as well as other spheres, the blacksmith remains an almost supernatural entity. Even in early times in Europe, the blacksmith was acknowledged guardedly and thought to be in league with dark forces as they often worked mysteriously and in darkness to guage the temperature of the heated metal.

In prehistoric times, much of the artwork, symbolism and probably much of that found on tools and weapons was closely related to shamanic ritual.
Books such as "The Quest for the Shaman" and "The Shamans Coat" deal a lot with these individuals in these cultures, absolutely fascinating!

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 28th April 2009, 06:56 AM

Hi Jake,

The piece does look like the head of a rogatina, minus the toggle. I'm guessing that the toggle is like the cross-bar on a boar spear, meant to keep the bear from charging up the spear staff? I'd also guess that's why the spear is was forked in the old days.

Just as a cross-reference, the Chinese used a tiger fork in hunting tigers, so I don't think it's unusual to use a large, sharp forked anything to hunt a large predator.

As an aside, back in the 80s, an arctic explorer decided to carry a 12' pike rather than a gun. They were working in a polar bear area, and he thought it was more fair to carry a spear. He never had to use it, which was just as well, because he assumed he'd die if he had to face off against a bear. Considering he didn't have a cross-piece on the spear, he was probably right.

F

Jake · 28th April 2009, 08:14 AM

Mr.McDougall,i cannot agree more-the connection between the metalworking(but iron and steel forging especially)and spirituality is,arguably,THE most facsinating aspect.Very involved and complex,in probably all cultures everywhere.And little wonder.Like you mention,the very circumstances of ironwork-the darkness necessary to judge the temperature,the sulfurous fumes(fire and brimstone),the fire,and the sheer intensity of the process.And the fruit,most often-the very subject of study of this forum-the most powerful catalyst of human interaction,to this day-a weapon...
Even among the fellow fire-trades(ceramics,glass-blowing),steel is very separate:No other material undergoes the phase changes that are so profound.Much of what the science explains to us nowadays was not lost on the ancients.The fact that virtually all of the Mesopotamian languages referred to iron as "heavenly" or "stellar" metal refers not only,even,to their access to it mostly through the meteoritic material,or so it seems.The first of the elements,this, number 26,that cannot simply be compressed out of H,but must be inside an imploding star to become so dense...
Thanks so much for all the book references,i'll truly become a nuisance to our librarian now,with all these ILL requests.
Fearn,you're quite correct,as far as i know,on all counts.Most hunting of large critters with a spear involves a toggle,lugs/wings,or the like.Around here(the forested interior of Alaska),the toggle was lashed on to the shaft with rawhide(it was very interesting to note the similarity with German boar spears,elsewhere on the forum).In some cases,like the den hunt,where the animal is provoked into an attack,the toggle serves as a fulcrum,around which the animal rotates in it's motion,the point of the lance describing an arc in it's chest(hopefully)severing the aorta.The placing distance of the toggle from the point is critical.
Many peoples in Siberia,Chukchi,Koryak,Evenk,many others,used a great number of different styles of spear.Sometimes some carried a very large one called(in Russian,but from some other language,not sure which),"pal'ma".It was used like an all-around camp tool,even for the trail hacking,it was heavy and sharp both.
Unfortunately i lack either the accurate description of one,or any images.However,I just had a chance to forge something of the sort,i'll post a photo although it's not quite done.Living here gives me a chance for an occasional commission such as this,for which i'm grateful.It's 19" overall.
All the best,Jake.

Jake · 28th April 2009, 08:47 AM

Please excuse if this is ranging too far and wide,i thought that it may be pertinent,in a VERY general and far-off way,to why the metallurgy of Siberia is possibly crucially important.These links were generously provided by a man on one of the other forums(Mr.Fogg's),in response to my "insat'ble curiosity".After perusing these,what struck my pea-brain in particular,is that the metallurgy(in practically a complete,ready to use shape),seem to have entered China from the,counter-intuitively,Noth West.So 2400 years ago,roughly,somebody to the N.W.of China was,for example,forging meteoritic iron,and forge-welding it into a cast bronze sword...Pretty advanced,for your run of the mill hunter-gatherer!

Hey Jake,
Don Wagner covers this topic in several short online articles and a couple of books

Early iron in China, Korea, and Japan
http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/.../KoreanFe.html

and the later paper
The earliest use of iron in China
http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/EARFE/EARFE.html

a list of Don's publications are online at http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/

He has published a couple of books that may interesting to this group
Dabieshan: Traditional Chinese iron-production techniques practiced in southern Henan in the twentieth century.

Iron and steel in Ancient China
http://books.google.com/books?id=mxZsguBzwZMC
and here http://www.brill.nl/product_id2981.htm
This book is a study of the production and use of iron and steel in China up to the second century B.C., and simultaneously a methodological study of the reconciliation of archaeological and written sources in Chinese cultural history.
An introductory chapter describes and discusses the available sources and their use, gives a brief outline of early Chinese archaeology and history, and develops certain important themes, especially the interaction of North and South in early China. Further chapters consider the invention of iron in a barbarian culture of southeast China, its spread to the area of Chinese culture, and the development of a large-scale iron industry in the third century B.C. The technology of iron production in early China is considered in two chapters, on the microstructures of wrought and cast iron artifacts.

Don has recently finished a volume on Ferrous Metallurgy for the Josesh Needham Research Institute series SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA
Details here http://www.nri.org.uk/newvolumes.html

Again,thanks for providing such a place for a discussion,and can only hope that this is not too unfocused.
Best regards,Jake.

27th April 2009, 05:40 PM	#1
Jake Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13	The unacceptabilty of iron as the material for the harvesting of game,mentioned in Mr.McDougall's post above,strikes me as germaine to the entire question of the scarcity of iron in the circumpolar North. There's a very significant spiritual element that was attached to iron and it's uses,well,just about everywhere.Most Siberian artifacts that i have seen(the photos of) were articles belonging to the shaman,who also invariably doubled as a blacksmith. In Russian,there's a curious etymology of the word for the bear spear specifically:"rogatina",meaning a forked part of a tree-trunk.Even though for centuries the bear spears were forged iron(and not forked),typical is the one below(the photo seems to have lost it's rightful owner in it's kicking about the internet,and often is used as a generic type of a Russian bear-spear). Also,the Russian Far East is an unexplored trove of various metallic artifacts.The other photo was posted by a friend on one of the forums,it is a table of a junk vendor in the Habarovsk region.The objects are pilfered from the burial mounds in the area by the economically strapped(to put it mildly)population.In the forground is a small meteorite,also unlawful to posess under the RF laws. Attached Images

28th April 2009, 08:14 AM	#4
Jake Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13	Mr.McDougall,i cannot agree more-the connection between the metalworking(but iron and steel forging especially)and spirituality is,arguably,THE most facsinating aspect.Very involved and complex,in probably all cultures everywhere.And little wonder.Like you mention,the very circumstances of ironwork-the darkness necessary to judge the temperature,the sulfurous fumes(fire and brimstone),the fire,and the sheer intensity of the process.And the fruit,most often-the very subject of study of this forum-the most powerful catalyst of human interaction,to this day-a weapon... Even among the fellow fire-trades(ceramics,glass-blowing),steel is very separate:No other material undergoes the phase changes that are so profound.Much of what the science explains to us nowadays was not lost on the ancients.The fact that virtually all of the Mesopotamian languages referred to iron as "heavenly" or "stellar" metal refers not only,even,to their access to it mostly through the meteoritic material,or so it seems.The first of the elements,this, number 26,that cannot simply be compressed out of H,but must be inside an imploding star to become so dense... Thanks so much for all the book references,i'll truly become a nuisance to our librarian now,with all these ILL requests. Fearn,you're quite correct,as far as i know,on all counts.Most hunting of large critters with a spear involves a toggle,lugs/wings,or the like.Around here(the forested interior of Alaska),the toggle was lashed on to the shaft with rawhide(it was very interesting to note the similarity with German boar spears,elsewhere on the forum).In some cases,like the den hunt,where the animal is provoked into an attack,the toggle serves as a fulcrum,around which the animal rotates in it's motion,the point of the lance describing an arc in it's chest(hopefully)severing the aorta.The placing distance of the toggle from the point is critical. Many peoples in Siberia,Chukchi,Koryak,Evenk,many others,used a great number of different styles of spear.Sometimes some carried a very large one called(in Russian,but from some other language,not sure which),"pal'ma".It was used like an all-around camp tool,even for the trail hacking,it was heavy and sharp both. Unfortunately i lack either the accurate description of one,or any images.However,I just had a chance to forge something of the sort,i'll post a photo although it's not quite done.Living here gives me a chance for an occasional commission such as this,for which i'm grateful.It's 19" overall. All the best,Jake. Attached Images

27th April 2009, 10:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Jake, and I'm really glad you posted this. I have always thought the culture and weaponry of these northern regions is completely fascinating, and its good to have someone as well versed in the subject of metallurgy and blacksmithing as you are with us. There are a number of members out there very active in this art, and I hope they will enter in on the thread. I appreciate the links and mention of the articles , and very much appreciate the detail you include in the text of your posts. You have rekindled my interest in the study of these cultures, and another great title that carries some great material on this: "Crossroads of Continents: Cultures of Siberia and Alaska" William W. Fitzhugh , 1988, Smithsonian I think the superstitions with iron and that blacksmithing was often done by shaman is an extremely intriguing practice often the case in many cultures. In the Sahara, the Tuareg blacksmiths are virtually a separate cultural group, and in many tribal cultures in Africa as well as other spheres, the blacksmith remains an almost supernatural entity. Even in early times in Europe, the blacksmith was acknowledged guardedly and thought to be in league with dark forces as they often worked mysteriously and in darkness to guage the temperature of the heated metal. In prehistoric times, much of the artwork, symbolism and probably much of that found on tools and weapons was closely related to shamanic ritual. Books such as "The Quest for the Shaman" and "The Shamans Coat" deal a lot with these individuals in these cultures, absolutely fascinating! All the best, Jim

28th April 2009, 06:56 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jake, The piece does look like the head of a rogatina, minus the toggle. I'm guessing that the toggle is like the cross-bar on a boar spear, meant to keep the bear from charging up the spear staff? I'd also guess that's why the spear is was forked in the old days. Just as a cross-reference, the Chinese used a tiger fork in hunting tigers, so I don't think it's unusual to use a large, sharp forked anything to hunt a large predator. As an aside, back in the 80s, an arctic explorer decided to carry a 12' pike rather than a gun. They were working in a polar bear area, and he thought it was more fair to carry a spear. He never had to use it, which was just as well, because he assumed he'd die if he had to face off against a bear. Considering he didn't have a cross-piece on the spear, he was probably right. F

28th April 2009, 08:47 AM	#5
Jake Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13	Please excuse if this is ranging too far and wide,i thought that it may be pertinent,in a VERY general and far-off way,to why the metallurgy of Siberia is possibly crucially important.These links were generously provided by a man on one of the other forums(Mr.Fogg's),in response to my "insat'ble curiosity".After perusing these,what struck my pea-brain in particular,is that the metallurgy(in practically a complete,ready to use shape),seem to have entered China from the,counter-intuitively,Noth West.So 2400 years ago,roughly,somebody to the N.W.of China was,for example,forging meteoritic iron,and forge-welding it into a cast bronze sword...Pretty advanced,for your run of the mill hunter-gatherer! Hey Jake, Don Wagner covers this topic in several short online articles and a couple of books Early iron in China, Korea, and Japan http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/.../KoreanFe.html and the later paper The earliest use of iron in China http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/EARFE/EARFE.html a list of Don's publications are online at http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/ He has published a couple of books that may interesting to this group Dabieshan: Traditional Chinese iron-production techniques practiced in southern Henan in the twentieth century. Iron and steel in Ancient China http://books.google.com/books?id=mxZsguBzwZMC and here http://www.brill.nl/product_id2981.htm This book is a study of the production and use of iron and steel in China up to the second century B.C., and simultaneously a methodological study of the reconciliation of archaeological and written sources in Chinese cultural history. An introductory chapter describes and discusses the available sources and their use, gives a brief outline of early Chinese archaeology and history, and develops certain important themes, especially the interaction of North and South in early China. Further chapters consider the invention of iron in a barbarian culture of southeast China, its spread to the area of Chinese culture, and the development of a large-scale iron industry in the third century B.C. The technology of iron production in early China is considered in two chapters, on the microstructures of wrought and cast iron artifacts. Don has recently finished a volume on Ferrous Metallurgy for the Josesh Needham Research Institute series SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA Details here http://www.nri.org.uk/newvolumes.html Again,thanks for providing such a place for a discussion,and can only hope that this is not too unfocused. Best regards,Jake.